Muslim juror who refused to take veil off is ordered to stand down

[naomi24]

http://www.dailymail....cial-expressions.html

I’ve just been watching a discussion about this on The Wright Stuff. Apparently this woman was wearing western clothing, but had her face covered. Was the judge right or wrong to dismiss her?

[jno]

why exactly does a judge have to see a juror's face? As rowanwitch says, there are ways of checking that the right juror has turned up. Are identical twins banned from jury service on the grounds that the wrong twin might go to court one day?

[joko]

Canary42 "It is amusing that judges who dress up in a manner making them virtually unrecognisable outside the courtroom can make such bizarre rulings".

err...what? how are they 'virtually unrecognisable?!

they have a robe and a wig...their faces are completely unobscured...

you will be saying you didnt realise clark kent and superman were one and the same person because of a pair of glasses and a curl next...

[237SJ]

jno - the judge didn`t say he needed to see her face for identification, he needed to see her facial expressions.

[Snafu03]

reading the news report the judge handled it very diplomatically, considering how contemptable she was.

[sp1814]

Snafu03

Do you mean literally contemptable, or contemptable as in 'contempt of court'?

[Snafu03]

if the court case she was on demanded that her face was visible, as per judges instructions and she refused then I imagine that to be contempt of court?

[shoota]

Apart from the single word 'Yes' there are no quotes from the woman so where Snafu gets the impression she was 'contemptable' I do not know
This article is not generated by a complaint from the woman, she may be perfectly happy.
As the question asked of the chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission is not quoted no credence can be given to his answer. The question could have been heavily loaded or inaccurate.
Sensationalism.

[flip_flop]

I couldn't care less about any religious or cultural issues concerning the niqab (both of which are complete bo11ocks) - for me I just feel it is wrong to hide one's face in public.

[ludwig]

// Official guidelines state that veils can be worn in court although senior judges should decide on a case-by-case basis. //

I don't suppose this issue arises in most countries where veils are commonly worn. If they have have trial by jury at all I doubt women are allowed on them.

[jno]

237sj, yes, the question of identification was raised by others on this thread. My own question is why a judge needs to see the expressions on a juror's face. Was he scared she might be poking her tongue out at him?

My own practice on a jury has been to show no expression at all. I hope I haven't been in contempt. No judge has ever complained.

[shoota]

We can't second guess the judges reason's but I would suggest that he would want to gauge the effect that parts of the vidence might have on the British public as represented by the jurors. This was an attempted murder trial and it may have been quite horrific.
This information may affect his sentencing should a guilty verdict be reached.

[ludwig]

Perhaps he just doesn't like veils. Maybe if she wore one of those Darth Vader helmets instead, he'd be ok with it.

[DTCwordfan]

We need a Julia Gillard announcement about this by DC

To paraphrase, this is Australia and we welcome all people, whatever their religion. However, we have our history, our culture, our ways, founded on Christianity and English law. You, as immigrants, as long as you are prepared to adapt to our ways, law and culture and respect others, are very welcome. However, if you object, isolate yourself etc, then we don't need you and you know where the airports and ports are.

A clear statement and this ought to be made here.

[netibiza]

Apparently she was in normal western clothes with the veil, and her religion says she should be in long gowns covering her modesty, so she wasn't that bothered. And I thought it was only the husband's wishes that they cover there heads/faces.

[DTCwordfan]

And just to add, Julia isn't some right wing looney, Pres of the Aussie EDL, no she is the PM and Labour Party leader down under.....

Could you ever imagine TB or GB coming out with that - in short, no. And I'm not sure whether DC would other - and the other, the Millipede, well he has Balls but not the sort for making this sort of statement, a reasonable drawing in the national sand of what is acceptable and what isn't when it comes to immigrant "behaviour".

[netibiza]

Well maybe she would have fallen asleep on jury service and with her mouth covered, the judge wouldn't tell if she was drooling in her sleep, her eyes may have been cast down!

[Zeuhl]

i think jno is being deliberately obtuse

seeing a person's face is an important part of communication

even for arabs as you will observe when watching arab men conversing.

arab women are expected to cover their face outside the home because - traditionally - they are not expected to be interacting with ANYONE outside other than the essentials of buying food etc

If, unlike the vast majority of human beings you don't think it matters whether you can see someone's face, perhaps you wouldn't think twice if callers at your front door were wearing ski masks or ku klux klan outfits.

[ludwig]

// i think jno is being deliberately obtuse //

That's most unlike him.

To be fair zeuhl, if anyone turned up at you door wearing KKK outfits, the fact that you couldn't see their faces would be the least of your worries, but I agree with your basic point.

[ummmm]

I think jno is a lady.

[Gromit]

A mater of mine was excuse Jury Service due to his religious beliefs, he was a Jahovah's Witness.

This woman has effective done the same.

Not sure what the fuss is about. It certainly does not prove islamification as someone earlier suggested.