Female circumcision.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail....llegally-Britain.html

With as many as 100,000 women who have undergone this brutal genital mutilation illegally in Britain, why are the police failing to act against this barbaric practice?

/// The Metropolitan Police said since 2008, it had received 166 reports of people who fear they are at risk of FGM but it has failed to bring forward a single perpetrator. ///

/// It is the same for all 43 forces across England and Wales with no convictions for the offence ever taking place.///

[argorstran]

AOG there is comparison between the two .In both cases you are irreversibly mutilating the child's sex organs .

[naomi24]

AOG, I am quite aware that there is no comparison between the two. Nevertheless, I think unnecessary circumcision carried out on young boys is also wrong – and I still don’t know what you were trying to say with your link.

[anotheoldgit]

naomi24

/// AOG, what point are you trying to make with that link? ///

Mainly that in some cases it is necessary to carry out circumcision on boys, but there are no good reasons whatsoever for female circumcision, unless of course there is some rare form of deformity at birth.

[Minotaur3]

Just a few points:
It is not practiced in "Black" (sub_Saharan) Africa, but is present in countries like Somalia, populated by brown Berber-type people.
It it not required by Islam: it's a pagan tradition be carried on.
Male circumcision can be done for medical reasons (imagine split foreskins!).
Interesting point: in cultures where males are circumcised routinely, the incidence of cervical cancer is much lower.

That said, I find female genital mutilation without pain relief an appalling idea. I read an autobiography by a lady who was forcibly circumcised as a child, and it was hard to read.

[Sqad]

naomi...OK...whilst you find ways of "stamping it out".....I will make it painless and as aesthetic as possible.

[naomi24]

Minotaur, Sadly, some Muslims do believe it is required by Islam.

//I find female genital mutilation without pain relief an appalling idea.//

Without pain relief?! It’s an appalling idea under any circumstances!

[naomi24]

Sqad, rather than doing that without question, perhaps you would be better occupied in taking the opportunity to try to educate them.

[Minotaur3]

Yes, Naomi, some Muslims have unpleasant traditions that are hangovers from before Islam. Many of them relate to women. Many men from middle eastern cultures seem to want to keep women down: for some reason they seem to be afraid of women, stopping girl's education, covering them up, keeping them indoors, and mutilating.
Shame: women are so lovely...

[naomi24]

Minotaur, unfortunately, in many instances, this is not a hangover from pre-Islamic culture, but is a practice very much of today, justification for which can – and is - found within Islamic literature.

[sp1814]

For what reason do Jewish boys have their foreskin sliced off?

I believe this is done at what is called at 'briss' and is not performed by a doctor, but a licences practitioner - is that correct?

I have to plead ignorance of female genital mutilation, but I done actually know what's involved. Going to look it up now.

[sp1814]

Yikes

Just read the Wikipedia entry for FGM.

Horror story, and in no way comparable (apart from the curious adherence to religious/social convention) to male circumcision.

AOG - what could the police do? By its very nature, these practices are carried out in secret - its not like these girls get thrown a FGM party, like a bar mitzvah. Therefore, with little information to go on, we should be wary of criticising the police for a lack of convictions.

Also, before anyone says, Well, they're afraid of upsetting ethnic minorities", I would like to point out that had that been true, FGM wouldn't have been made illegal in the first place.

[Clanad]

Minotaur 3 suggests that the female circumcision is not practiced in Sub Saharan Africa... Quite the opposite is well known of course. For example the Maasai of Kenya still practice it. It has seen a strong tendency to be eventually outlawed, primarily by the efforts of Christianizing more of the country. However, the surgery, if it can be called that, is described in many articles, but none as vividly as the novels by Robert Ruark, such as 'Something of Value' and 'Uhuru'. centered on the Mau Mau uprisings of the mid-1950's.

[naomi24]

SP, Circumcision for Jewish boys is a token of the covenant between God and Abraham. More information here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah

I haven’t read right through the link, but it is concise and I think it will answer your questions.

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

/// Also, before anyone says, Well, they're afraid of upsetting ethnic minorities", I would like to point out that had that been true, FGM wouldn't have been made illegal in the first place. ///

There are a number of cultural illegal practices, where the police are wary of investigating and bringing convictions against the offenders, simply because of racial sensitivities.

[seadogg]

Possibly also to protect the child from retaliation at a later date.

[emmie]

I saw the headline yesterday in The Times, i didn't buy the paper but this is a despicable way to treat anyone. I would like to know how the police are supposed to stamp this out, it isn't possible, unless those who do it, or protect those who do have a change of heart and come forward with information.

[naomi24]

//There are a number of cultural illegal practices, where the police are wary of investigating and bringing convictions against the offenders, simply because of racial sensitivities. //

AOG, What illegal cultural practices? What do you mean?

[FredPuli43]

I always thought that circumcision was required by Jews and Muslims because they originally lived in sandy countries, and sand gets everywhere (ouch!).
It's local conditions that dictated dietary laws, too. Pork and shellfish, for example, are potentially dangerous foods; certainly were, thousands of years ago, when our understanding of food poisoning was primitive; unless great care is taken in keeping and preparing them, and warm conditions make them even riskier.
The religious requirement was simply a means of enforcing a sensible practice.

[jomifl]

Islam seems to be obsessed with sex and abusing and denigrating women in any way possible. FGM seems to be the culmination of the islamic ideal. There is no excuse for it, it is 'actual bodily harm' and merits a long sentence in prison.

[keyplus90]

I will agree with what MINOTAUR 3 said and being Muslim, I know very well that it is a cultural thing almost entirely in Africa. In many countries few people are still holding onto their cultures and Islam is completely against any cultural issues that supersede religion. Male circumcision is according to the religion and now modern science does agree with the endless benefits of this for both of the partners (or wife and husband). However female circumcision has nothing to do with religion and therefore I am (again being Muslim) totally against it because it. But Naomi (as usual) believes that it is in Islamic literature. Therefore I would love to see first of all that what she calls Islamic literature and then if she could point it out so that it may increase my knowledge.