Hillsborough: "Key Findings"

[Kerosene]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...d-merseyside-19577033

So there we have it, the exhaustive 18 month study of over 400,000 documents has basically damned the Police and almost no one else. Their 'key findings' more or less lay the blame fairly and squarely at the door of the South Yorkshire Police.
Having been able to carry out their investigations many years after the tragedy, in the relative calm, they have concluded that the Police were not only palpablyculpable on the day, but then conspired afterwards to deliberately deflect blame onto the Liverpool fans.

I still cannot help but surmise that this report is and has been weighed against the Police from day one. I say that because until yesterday I was unaware that those compiling it had apparently been in the company of the families of those who died throughout their study period?

Would it not have been fair to all concerned had they either have taken an equal amount of time to consult with all involved parties instead of the one pressure group? Had they done so, could their deliberations have led to a different conclusion?
Were the Police and the other agencies disadvantaged as a result?

[ichkeria]

I am afraid that that is exactly what DID happen.
There were too many fans without tickets milling around outside trying to force their way in and so the police chief ordered the gate to be opened to let them inside. With hindsight at least a shockingly daft thing to do, given that the fences mean there was nowhere for them to go.

[johnk]

No

[jno]

fans were generally caged to stop them fighting each other. Fans had a terrible reputation for hooliganism in those days. The police took advantage of this bad reputation to try to blame them for the tragedy. The conclusion of the inquiry was clear, however: it wasn't the fans's fault at all. Nor were they drunk, as the police also suggested.

[Zeuhl]

<always one or two rotten apples in every barrel>

the enquiry has found that not to be the case.

there is clear evidence, not disputed by SYP, that there was 'coordinated', 'systemic' and 'institutional' tampering with evidence in an attemt to pervert the course of justice.

Mistakes on the day might be forgiveable, but if we can't trust our police forces not to tamper with evidence it's a very bad situation.

[ichkeria]

The fact that the police opened the gates to let the overspillof fans into the ground is not a recent revelation. That's been known for years. Of course the intention wasn't deliberately to cause a disaster. However that is tragic snout Hillsborough is that this was a disaster waiting to happen. I believe that the previous year a fan attending a similar game at the same venue wrote to the authorities that just such an event was a serious possibility. The warning signs were there.
I'm afraid to say also that any report which incidentally exonerates the fans of any blame cannot be totally honest. It seems incredible to claim that none were drunk and the question also has to be asked what on earth were the ticketless fans doing trying to access the ground in the first place. None of which excuses the failings of the police and emergency services of course

[Zeuhl]

comb

Indeed so if that is proven to be the case.

ich

I don't think the report claims no fans were drunk, nor that some ticketless fans were tryind to get in - as you say that was 'normal'

But the report states that neither of those factors were a cause of the disaster. police failure to follow their own procedures and lack of coordination were.

[magicmick]

ichkeria you are so right i had a friend who was outside the ground he said there was pushing to such an extent that people were being crushed against the turnstiles walls and gate, a lot had no tickets and he had seen them drinking (not saying they were drunk) then the gates opened and they flooded in. So it does beg the question if this pushing had not happened would the tradgedy have happened, he felt the police were trying to stop injury on the outside but with dire concequences on the inside, the people who were on the inside who had gone to the ground early were not to blame but the people out side should take a close look at themselves and ask should we have gone without tickets then tried to force entry

[jomifl]

The police opened the gates to prevent death by crushing, however they had no way of knowing that it would lead to worse consequences. They did not know that the crush barries would fail, nobody did. The 'cover up' such as it is, occurred after the event, it didn't cause a single death.
jno if the presence of police is essential to prevent football fans from killing themselves then it should only be viewed on TV

[Zeuhl]

<however they had no way of knowing that it would lead to worse consequences.>

yes they did.

their own procedures should have prevented sending in more people to an area already full and would have done if not for their own (admitted) failures.

I suspect some comments on here are made by people with no experience of going to big matches in the 70s or 80s.

Fans pushing to get in was normal

Fans being shepherded (often by officers on horseback) was normal

Fans in question had no option but to go where they were shepherded
(unless you enjoy being trampled by a horse)

And no way of knowing they were being shepherded into an area already full and so cause the deaths of others

[jomifl]

Zeuhl, do you really think that the police would have known that the area that they were letting the fans into was already overcrowded? Can you tell us how they would have known. It's a bit like throwing people off a burning boat into the se. If you leave them on the boat they will burn to death, if you throw them into the sea they might drown. What choice was there other than a bad one.

[Zeuhl]

<do you really think that the police would have known that the area that they were letting the fans into was already overcrowded? Can you tell us how they would have known. >

jomifl

It's called communication.
And management of the overall situation.

By their own admission, SYP were tasked to do both, had procedures for doing so

but failed to follow.

officers and stewards in the ground could see the terraces were already full
but officers outside decided that a good way to relieve crowding outside was to simply open a gate sending more people rushing in.

probably not the best example of coordination or decision making one could imagine

to give them their due, officers themselves recognised these failings at the time and put them in their statements

someone later crossed them out

[Zeuhl]

<The apparent decision to open gates to allow people in does not seem to have been unreasonable under those circumstances because with the best will in the world it did not appear as if the fans might be appeased>

comb please see my post ^

This question has been rigorously assessed by people with more knowledge than us and with all the evidence to hand and the responsibility laid at (and accepted by) SYP.

No one is claiming the fans were not pushing, rowdy, impatient, or even beligerent and inebriated in some cases.

But that was quite common in those situations then and there is no evidence that anyone was likely to die.

And it is no excuse for the officials charged with managing the situation to opt for actions that did kill 96 people simply because they were inadequately led and did not follow their own procedures properly.