I Wonder Why This Number Is Rising So...
Politics3 mins ago
Are Some Of Our Young Becoming More Sadistically Violent, Than They Ever Were In The Past?
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What makes three youngsters attack and kill a lone man just for the fun of it, or was their future mapped out for them as soon as they came into the world?
The two Brothers also had another brother already in jail for murder, and their 'Mother' was also jailed because she had given the pair a false alibi to shield them from detectives.
What makes three youngsters attack and kill a lone man just for the fun of it, or was their future mapped out for them as soon as they came into the world?
The two Brothers also had another brother already in jail for murder, and their 'Mother' was also jailed because she had given the pair a false alibi to shield them from detectives.
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"andy -I don't think families like this 'endure' anything -they create the lives they live - they have choices but choose not to take them."
Then we must beg to differ magsmay.
The route cause of all these issues is the complete lack of choice involved.
Your perspective is that of an intelligent independent person who has choices, and is able to make them.
For an entire social underclass, of which this family is a member - choices are absent, as is the intelligence to make them if they were.
For these people, life is a set of circumstances, things happen to them, and they accept them as the way things are. There is no structure to make informed choices and changes - these people simply go along accepting that the way they live on benefits is simpy the way life is,there is no notion of making a change in any way. Life is survival of the fittest, and morality is skewed by the way people live - a notion of family support is there - however misguided it may be.
To me, as to you, this form of living is utterly alien, and I am eternally grateful that I am where I am, and not where they are.
As I have opined before, there is a default level of living for AB users exhbited by the possession of, or access to a computer, and the literacy and intelligence to use it to debate issues that do not concern them directly.
That sort of existence is equally alien to families like this one.
Yes, the judge is right that this mother is 'pathetic', but not in the use of the word as an insult - but as an adjective describing where she and her family are.
I do not for one moment what has happened here - nor do I wish to blame it on the Welfare State, as Middle England is so quick to do - the issues involved are more complicated than that.
Then we must beg to differ magsmay.
The route cause of all these issues is the complete lack of choice involved.
Your perspective is that of an intelligent independent person who has choices, and is able to make them.
For an entire social underclass, of which this family is a member - choices are absent, as is the intelligence to make them if they were.
For these people, life is a set of circumstances, things happen to them, and they accept them as the way things are. There is no structure to make informed choices and changes - these people simply go along accepting that the way they live on benefits is simpy the way life is,there is no notion of making a change in any way. Life is survival of the fittest, and morality is skewed by the way people live - a notion of family support is there - however misguided it may be.
To me, as to you, this form of living is utterly alien, and I am eternally grateful that I am where I am, and not where they are.
As I have opined before, there is a default level of living for AB users exhbited by the possession of, or access to a computer, and the literacy and intelligence to use it to debate issues that do not concern them directly.
That sort of existence is equally alien to families like this one.
Yes, the judge is right that this mother is 'pathetic', but not in the use of the word as an insult - but as an adjective describing where she and her family are.
I do not for one moment what has happened here - nor do I wish to blame it on the Welfare State, as Middle England is so quick to do - the issues involved are more complicated than that.
I agree totally with the concept that violent video games do not make anyone violent -but those children with other issues to deal with . of which have been catalogued in this thread -bad role models etc. often find these games an outlet for their emotions and tend to meld fantasy and reality. You can 'wack' someone in a video game -they 'wack' you back and the worst scenario is you lose the game - provoke a fight and get 'wacked' in a school playground and it bloody hurts -and often you don't do it again!
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andy -great post - enjoyed reading it and agree each family and its situation are unique, though fuelled by the same sets of circumstances. Where do you start -Education? -some kids avoid school? Role models -Who? -I think more parental accountability when kids get into trouble might help - if the parents thought they may get a custodial sentence if they allowed their children to commit crimes might that stop the 'I let them do what they like I can't stop them' brigade? -controversial and I'm really not sure that would work either
FredPuli43
/// And they weren't black, Muslim, or immigrants, aog. Find some little consolation in that. On the other hand, they can't be deported either ///
I wouldn't think that the family of the poor victim would be so consoled as you apparently seem to be.
And yes a very rare occasion I must admit, but then there must come a time sometimes.
/// And they weren't black, Muslim, or immigrants, aog. Find some little consolation in that. On the other hand, they can't be deported either ///
I wouldn't think that the family of the poor victim would be so consoled as you apparently seem to be.
And yes a very rare occasion I must admit, but then there must come a time sometimes.
I'm not consoled at all, aog. That's why I addressed the statement to you specifically, rather than say "We" could find some consolation. Since you go on to say you admit that it's "a very rare occasion" that the offenders don't belong in my specified categories, it seems that I was right to address you, doesn't it ?
-- answer removed --
FredPulis - that may well be the response - but not the answer.
More often than not, there isn't an answer because the prepetrators are not intelligent enough to have thought through their actions, or the reasons for them. They act entirely on impulse because the mechanisms of cause and effect, and consequences, simply do not figure in their thought proceceses.
More often than not, there isn't an answer because the prepetrators are not intelligent enough to have thought through their actions, or the reasons for them. They act entirely on impulse because the mechanisms of cause and effect, and consequences, simply do not figure in their thought proceceses.
andy-hughes
/// The Mail panders to its Middle England readership who have no concept - much less experience - of life like this family have endured, and its resultant erosion of simple value for human life - but that does not make it a template for a generation of young people. ///
Once again why not blame the Mail and it's readership, but just like accusations of racism or homophobia etc, they are all getting rather boring.
But if it any more pleasing on your eyes Andy here is what the Judge said as reported in (dare I say it) The Guardian.
/// Passing sentence on Monday, judge Clement Goldstone QC, the recorder of Liverpool, said: "I think it is a desperately sad reflection on this society that each of you was party to serious violence purely for the sake of it." ///
Surely it matters not what newspapers website one reads, or are you actually saying that there is one that will help us to put ourselves in the minds of these sadistic killers, so has to accept and understand why they are what they are?
There are far too many do-gooders who tend to pour their sympathetic understandings on such pond life, these do-gooders would be better employed considering the victims and their families of these crimes.
/// The Mail panders to its Middle England readership who have no concept - much less experience - of life like this family have endured, and its resultant erosion of simple value for human life - but that does not make it a template for a generation of young people. ///
Once again why not blame the Mail and it's readership, but just like accusations of racism or homophobia etc, they are all getting rather boring.
But if it any more pleasing on your eyes Andy here is what the Judge said as reported in (dare I say it) The Guardian.
/// Passing sentence on Monday, judge Clement Goldstone QC, the recorder of Liverpool, said: "I think it is a desperately sad reflection on this society that each of you was party to serious violence purely for the sake of it." ///
Surely it matters not what newspapers website one reads, or are you actually saying that there is one that will help us to put ourselves in the minds of these sadistic killers, so has to accept and understand why they are what they are?
There are far too many do-gooders who tend to pour their sympathetic understandings on such pond life, these do-gooders would be better employed considering the victims and their families of these crimes.
magsmay - thank you for your kind words.
Education is indeed the key.
Learning to live alongside others, and a sense of sharing, respect, compassion and the other skills needed to exist in society are taught at a very young age.
If the government dropped its obsession with Further Education, and the ludicrous notion that everyone wants and deserves to go to university - they don't and they don't - and put the money into pre-school education, and offered resources and training and a salary that reflects the appropriate status and responsibiity for nursery nurses, you would see a difference within one generation.
The government's attitude to nursery education is apparent - they allow a minimum wage to be paid to a tranche of youg women who don't know what they want to do in life, but vaguely like children, so become nursery nurses.
The government then wrings its hands at the successive results of that kind of social and educational start in life - the traunts, the hooligans, the feckless, the unfeeling, and tries to put a plaster on that gaping wound in society.
The problem is, childrens' welfare and education is not 'sexy' and doesn't garner votes, so it will never be a priority, and incidents like this will continue to happen.
With a decent nursery education system, the learning difficulties of these two boys would have been assessed and dealt with properly, and an appropriate social care system would have supported a mother clearly out of her depth, and unequiped to deal with her children adequately.
Any sign of a change any time soon? What do yoou think?
Education is indeed the key.
Learning to live alongside others, and a sense of sharing, respect, compassion and the other skills needed to exist in society are taught at a very young age.
If the government dropped its obsession with Further Education, and the ludicrous notion that everyone wants and deserves to go to university - they don't and they don't - and put the money into pre-school education, and offered resources and training and a salary that reflects the appropriate status and responsibiity for nursery nurses, you would see a difference within one generation.
The government's attitude to nursery education is apparent - they allow a minimum wage to be paid to a tranche of youg women who don't know what they want to do in life, but vaguely like children, so become nursery nurses.
The government then wrings its hands at the successive results of that kind of social and educational start in life - the traunts, the hooligans, the feckless, the unfeeling, and tries to put a plaster on that gaping wound in society.
The problem is, childrens' welfare and education is not 'sexy' and doesn't garner votes, so it will never be a priority, and incidents like this will continue to happen.
With a decent nursery education system, the learning difficulties of these two boys would have been assessed and dealt with properly, and an appropriate social care system would have supported a mother clearly out of her depth, and unequiped to deal with her children adequately.
Any sign of a change any time soon? What do yoou think?
/// With a decent nursery education system, the learning difficulties of these two boys would have been assessed and dealt with properly, and an appropriate social care system would have supported a mother clearly out of her depth, and unequiped to deal with her children adequately. ///
Andy do you really believe what you yourself actually type?
How much longer can we depend on Social Services to see that our children are brought up properly, maybe the time isn't far off that one must sit a "suitability to become a parent" exam, before being allowed to take on the task?
How many excuses can one use, there hasn't always been decent nursery education or even social workers, many families were brought up to know right from wrong by their parents, even in the slums of East London, kids were kids they didn't go around beating up and killing adults or even their own, if kids got into a fight with one another, strict rules were observed.
Even in third world countries with hardly any education whatsoever children don't kill their elders, no the trouble is these days is the lack of discipline, the breakdown of families with no Father figure, and fear of God, (yes laugh and scoff all you like, but it really did work in the past).
These were core values that stood us in stead for generations upon generations, and sadly they are no longer sacrosanct in certain circles, that is the problem.
Andy do you really believe what you yourself actually type?
How much longer can we depend on Social Services to see that our children are brought up properly, maybe the time isn't far off that one must sit a "suitability to become a parent" exam, before being allowed to take on the task?
How many excuses can one use, there hasn't always been decent nursery education or even social workers, many families were brought up to know right from wrong by their parents, even in the slums of East London, kids were kids they didn't go around beating up and killing adults or even their own, if kids got into a fight with one another, strict rules were observed.
Even in third world countries with hardly any education whatsoever children don't kill their elders, no the trouble is these days is the lack of discipline, the breakdown of families with no Father figure, and fear of God, (yes laugh and scoff all you like, but it really did work in the past).
These were core values that stood us in stead for generations upon generations, and sadly they are no longer sacrosanct in certain circles, that is the problem.
It didn't always work in the past, though, did it?
Let's allow the following truths: Lack of a father figure not helping, check. Though that doesn't mean that two mothers, or two fathers, or one loving parent, isn't as good. The problem is that some families are not stable. And this has always been a problem.
Fear of God: Quite. I hate the kill-count arguments, religion 300 million fascism 52 million, or what have you, but even so fearing something that far fewer people these days believe in isn't the answer either. It didn't entirely work back then, instead we went out on religious crusades, or inter-religious fights. So that's not enough either.
Better education: Well, perhaps there are fewer problems in Africa even despite a lack of education. Let's overlook all the civil wars, ethnic strife and persecution of women and gay people, and then maybe this point holds too.
What I think has happened in the last forty years or so is that there have been absolutely loads of changes, to what defines morality, what defines family, and so on, and things haven't really settled down yet. Furthermore, with far greater media coverage problems that were perhaps always there but hidden from sight are exposed far more than ever before. Because of all this things can seem more dangerous than they were a generation ago but I'm not convinced it's really true. I'm not convinced because, up to a few changes in vocabulary, what you are saying has been repeated throughout the ages by the "old gits" of each era in history. A "return to old values" called for pretty much constantly, as far back as Ancient Greece. I've read enough History, too, to know that crime and violence have always been problems.
I don't claim to have the answers. But I don't think your idea of returning to earlier values will work. The world has moved on. Better to move with it than move backward.
Let's allow the following truths: Lack of a father figure not helping, check. Though that doesn't mean that two mothers, or two fathers, or one loving parent, isn't as good. The problem is that some families are not stable. And this has always been a problem.
Fear of God: Quite. I hate the kill-count arguments, religion 300 million fascism 52 million, or what have you, but even so fearing something that far fewer people these days believe in isn't the answer either. It didn't entirely work back then, instead we went out on religious crusades, or inter-religious fights. So that's not enough either.
Better education: Well, perhaps there are fewer problems in Africa even despite a lack of education. Let's overlook all the civil wars, ethnic strife and persecution of women and gay people, and then maybe this point holds too.
What I think has happened in the last forty years or so is that there have been absolutely loads of changes, to what defines morality, what defines family, and so on, and things haven't really settled down yet. Furthermore, with far greater media coverage problems that were perhaps always there but hidden from sight are exposed far more than ever before. Because of all this things can seem more dangerous than they were a generation ago but I'm not convinced it's really true. I'm not convinced because, up to a few changes in vocabulary, what you are saying has been repeated throughout the ages by the "old gits" of each era in history. A "return to old values" called for pretty much constantly, as far back as Ancient Greece. I've read enough History, too, to know that crime and violence have always been problems.
I don't claim to have the answers. But I don't think your idea of returning to earlier values will work. The world has moved on. Better to move with it than move backward.
"How much longer can we depend on Social Services to see that our children are brought up properly, maybe the time isn't far off that one must sit a "suitability to become a parent" exam, before being allowed to take on the task?"
I have no idea why Social Services would have any input into Pre-School Education - that is the remit of the Department Of Education - the clue is in the name.
I don't think Social Services are, or should be involved - that's why i didn't mention them in my reponse.
And yes, i do believe what i write because I have a wife who has been a teacher, a deputy head (in a depried inner-city school), a head, and is now an Ofsted and ISI Inspector with thirty years experience in education. I also have one daughter who is a Senior Classroom Assistant in a deprived inner-city school with responsibility for Special Needs children, one daughter who has been a Staff Nurse in a childrens' hospice, and one daughter who is a Nursery Nurse.
You don't have to take my word for it, just come round and listen to their conversations together - since any one, never mind all of them, have more experience in this area than you and I put together.
I have no idea why Social Services would have any input into Pre-School Education - that is the remit of the Department Of Education - the clue is in the name.
I don't think Social Services are, or should be involved - that's why i didn't mention them in my reponse.
And yes, i do believe what i write because I have a wife who has been a teacher, a deputy head (in a depried inner-city school), a head, and is now an Ofsted and ISI Inspector with thirty years experience in education. I also have one daughter who is a Senior Classroom Assistant in a deprived inner-city school with responsibility for Special Needs children, one daughter who has been a Staff Nurse in a childrens' hospice, and one daughter who is a Nursery Nurse.
You don't have to take my word for it, just come round and listen to their conversations together - since any one, never mind all of them, have more experience in this area than you and I put together.
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