Quizzes & Puzzles63 mins ago
Stephen Lawrence Murder 20 Years On.
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It is now twenty years since the brutal and savage murder of Stephen Lawrence, some say we live is a much less violent society than years ago, if this is true isn't it now time that a final line was drawn under this historic case and closure put on the whole affair?
This one murder has taken up enough time, what with an inquiry, not to mention the huge costs in resources and police time, after all they have already tried, found guilty and imprisoned two members of the gang that committed this act, that is much more than can be said for those more numerous gangs who are guilty of not only white murders but also black on black killings.
It is now twenty years since the brutal and savage murder of Stephen Lawrence, some say we live is a much less violent society than years ago, if this is true isn't it now time that a final line was drawn under this historic case and closure put on the whole affair?
This one murder has taken up enough time, what with an inquiry, not to mention the huge costs in resources and police time, after all they have already tried, found guilty and imprisoned two members of the gang that committed this act, that is much more than can be said for those more numerous gangs who are guilty of not only white murders but also black on black killings.
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We're going wildly off topic here.
I would like to suggest that Mrs Lawrence can fight this as long as she pleases...in the same way that the other Mrs Lawrence fights on for justice - 18 years after the murder of her husband:
http://
No calls for a line to be drawn under this case...
I would like to suggest that Mrs Lawrence can fight this as long as she pleases...in the same way that the other Mrs Lawrence fights on for justice - 18 years after the murder of her husband:
http://
No calls for a line to be drawn under this case...
New Judge
How could the private prosecution by the Lawrences have let the killers 'walk free'?
From Wikipedia:
[i]On 7 May 1993, the Acourt brothers and Dobson were arrested. Norris turned himself in to police and was likewise arrested three days later. Knight was arrested on 3 June. Neil Acourt, picked out at an identity parade, and Luke Knight were charged with murder on 13 May and 23 June 1993 respectively, but the charges were dropped on 29 July 1993
In April 1994,[27] Stephen Lawrence's family initiated a private prosecution against the initial two suspects and three others: Jamie Acourt, Gary Dobson and David Norris. The family were not entitled to legal aid and a fighting fund was established to pay for the analysis of forensic evidence and the cost of tracing and re-interviewing witnesses.[i]
The chronology doesn't match your assertion.
How could the private prosecution by the Lawrences have let the killers 'walk free'?
From Wikipedia:
[i]On 7 May 1993, the Acourt brothers and Dobson were arrested. Norris turned himself in to police and was likewise arrested three days later. Knight was arrested on 3 June. Neil Acourt, picked out at an identity parade, and Luke Knight were charged with murder on 13 May and 23 June 1993 respectively, but the charges were dropped on 29 July 1993
In April 1994,[27] Stephen Lawrence's family initiated a private prosecution against the initial two suspects and three others: Jamie Acourt, Gary Dobson and David Norris. The family were not entitled to legal aid and a fighting fund was established to pay for the analysis of forensic evidence and the cost of tracing and re-interviewing witnesses.[i]
The chronology doesn't match your assertion.
sp1814...You are right but you run the great danger of being logical, which is an anathema to many here on AB ! Of course Mrs Lawrence is correct in fighting for her son. Had she and her ex-husband not been insistent from day one,that Stephens murder be investigated properly, those two thugs would still be roaming our streets, ready to kill again, perhaps a white boy next time.
The reason that most of the killers are still free is that the Police made a complete Horlicks of the investigation, right from the start. Its hardly the first time that Police incompetence has allowed a miscarriage of justice to occur. I was reading about poor Timothy Evans on WiKi this morning ::::
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One aspect of the Lawrence case that still puzzles me is this.
The overriding reason that Dobson and Norris were finally convicted was because the Cold Case Unit were called in, and they found forensic evidence to link the two with Lawrence. Now if this evidence was found by the forensic scientists working on the Cold Case review, why was it not found during the original investigation ?
The outcome of the Enquiry quite clearly found that incompetence on the part of the Metropolitan Police was a major factor in the appalling way in which the case was investigated, but to ignore forensic evidence is quite a mistake.
The reason that most of the killers are still free is that the Police made a complete Horlicks of the investigation, right from the start. Its hardly the first time that Police incompetence has allowed a miscarriage of justice to occur. I was reading about poor Timothy Evans on WiKi this morning ::::
http://
One aspect of the Lawrence case that still puzzles me is this.
The overriding reason that Dobson and Norris were finally convicted was because the Cold Case Unit were called in, and they found forensic evidence to link the two with Lawrence. Now if this evidence was found by the forensic scientists working on the Cold Case review, why was it not found during the original investigation ?
The outcome of the Enquiry quite clearly found that incompetence on the part of the Metropolitan Police was a major factor in the appalling way in which the case was investigated, but to ignore forensic evidence is quite a mistake.
They walked free because of this, sp:
18th April 1996: The murder trial begins against Neil Acourt, Luke Knight and Gary Dobson at the Old Bailey. But the case collapses when Mr Justice Curtis rules that identification evidence from Brooks is inadmissible. All three are acquitted.
This was the trial resulting from the private prosecution brought by the Lawrence family. In June 1993, as you pointed out, the CPS dropped charges against Acourt and Knight because of the unreliability of evidence provided by Duwayne Brooks (see him mentioned above). The family was warned that their prosecution was likely to fail. Acourt, Knight and Dobson “walked free” as a result of that failed prosecution.
The family was extremely fortunate that the law on double jeopardy was changed otherwise further prosecutions against Acourt, Knight and Dobson would have been impossible. And that would have been a result of their failed prosecution which they were warned was a non-starter.
18th April 1996: The murder trial begins against Neil Acourt, Luke Knight and Gary Dobson at the Old Bailey. But the case collapses when Mr Justice Curtis rules that identification evidence from Brooks is inadmissible. All three are acquitted.
This was the trial resulting from the private prosecution brought by the Lawrence family. In June 1993, as you pointed out, the CPS dropped charges against Acourt and Knight because of the unreliability of evidence provided by Duwayne Brooks (see him mentioned above). The family was warned that their prosecution was likely to fail. Acourt, Knight and Dobson “walked free” as a result of that failed prosecution.
The family was extremely fortunate that the law on double jeopardy was changed otherwise further prosecutions against Acourt, Knight and Dobson would have been impossible. And that would have been a result of their failed prosecution which they were warned was a non-starter.
em10
Except for the big story in the Evening Standard yesterday:
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If you put a search for 'philip lawrence murder headmaster' into a Google search, you'' find eighteen different stories from various newspapers about the case, and subsequent 'behaviour' of his killer.
Except for the big story in the Evening Standard yesterday:
http://
If you put a search for 'philip lawrence murder headmaster' into a Google search, you'' find eighteen different stories from various newspapers about the case, and subsequent 'behaviour' of his killer.
sp1814
/// Also, yes - I am accusing you of being economic with the truth when you say that black on black crime is not vigorously investigated. ///
/// Have you not heard of Operation Trident? ///
/// What does your one link prove? ///
Of course I have heard of Operation Trident, but you accused me of lying, just read the second part of what you put, "and that murderers are walking free"?
/// Are you saying that black-on-black murders aren't investigated and that murderers are walking free? ///
And the 'ONE' link I provided was proof that at least one or more murderers are walking free.
So can I please now have an apology for calling me a liar?
/// Also, yes - I am accusing you of being economic with the truth when you say that black on black crime is not vigorously investigated. ///
/// Have you not heard of Operation Trident? ///
/// What does your one link prove? ///
Of course I have heard of Operation Trident, but you accused me of lying, just read the second part of what you put, "and that murderers are walking free"?
/// Are you saying that black-on-black murders aren't investigated and that murderers are walking free? ///
And the 'ONE' link I provided was proof that at least one or more murderers are walking free.
So can I please now have an apology for calling me a liar?
AOG
I didn't call you a liar.
I said that what you wrote wasn't true.
If you said that The Beatles first UK number one was 'She Loves You', and I said, "'No...that's not true, it was 'From Me To You'", does that mean I'm calling you a liar?
Anyway, getting back to the point (rather than this semantic dead end), you wrote:
after all they have already tried, found guilty and imprisoned two members of the gang that committed this act, that is much more than can be said for those more numerous gangs who are guilty of not only white murders but also black on black killings.
That is simply not true. The conviction rate for gang-related murders is actually very high.
Unless of course, you're referring to unpublished figures that we do not have access to?
I didn't call you a liar.
I said that what you wrote wasn't true.
If you said that The Beatles first UK number one was 'She Loves You', and I said, "'No...that's not true, it was 'From Me To You'", does that mean I'm calling you a liar?
Anyway, getting back to the point (rather than this semantic dead end), you wrote:
after all they have already tried, found guilty and imprisoned two members of the gang that committed this act, that is much more than can be said for those more numerous gangs who are guilty of not only white murders but also black on black killings.
That is simply not true. The conviction rate for gang-related murders is actually very high.
Unless of course, you're referring to unpublished figures that we do not have access to?
AOG
Hang on...I've just looked back at what I wrote.
I actually said:
Are you saying that black-on-black murders aren't investigated and that murderers are walking free?
That isn't true, is it?
So, not only did I not call you a liar, but I qualified it with an 'is it?'
I am a little taken aback that you would take this to mean, 'You are a liar'.
Don't you think that you have have possibly misread the meaning of what I asked?
Hang on...I've just looked back at what I wrote.
I actually said:
Are you saying that black-on-black murders aren't investigated and that murderers are walking free?
That isn't true, is it?
So, not only did I not call you a liar, but I qualified it with an 'is it?'
I am a little taken aback that you would take this to mean, 'You are a liar'.
Don't you think that you have have possibly misread the meaning of what I asked?
The point of the whole case is that it’s a “cause celebre” It isn’t just the crime, as appalling as it was, but the terrible police procedure, incompetence, alleged corruption, institutional racism (I cannot remember the phrase prior to the murder).
The actions of the accused, in the face of the incredible dignity shown by the Lawrence’s. However it should be remembered that if Neville Lawrence, hadn’t known Paul Dacre chances are it would have been forgotten.
The actions of the accused, in the face of the incredible dignity shown by the Lawrence’s. However it should be remembered that if Neville Lawrence, hadn’t known Paul Dacre chances are it would have been forgotten.
sp1814
/// You are stating that there are a large number of unsolved murders where the suspect(s) are black. ///
/// This is simply untrue. ///
Of course I do not know for certain but then neither do you.
There have been numerous such gang and drug killings committed by more that one gang, do we know the names of the victims or do we even know if some are still unsolved?
Even if they are, it is a certainty that they will not be remembered in 20years time, and I can be even more certain when I forecast that they will not be honoured enough to have the Prime Minister, the Leaders of the other Parties, the Mayor of London and other dignities attend a Memorial Service in their honour.
/// You are stating that there are a large number of unsolved murders where the suspect(s) are black. ///
/// This is simply untrue. ///
Of course I do not know for certain but then neither do you.
There have been numerous such gang and drug killings committed by more that one gang, do we know the names of the victims or do we even know if some are still unsolved?
Even if they are, it is a certainty that they will not be remembered in 20years time, and I can be even more certain when I forecast that they will not be honoured enough to have the Prime Minister, the Leaders of the other Parties, the Mayor of London and other dignities attend a Memorial Service in their honour.
mikey4444
/// However AOG's implication in his post was that if the skin colours in the Lawrence affair had been reversed, then it would have been treated diffidently ///
And if you wasn't so bigoted with a chip the size of a boulder on your shoulders, and more educated so as to be able to read, you wouldn't have failed to notice that I also made reference to other black murders that haven't been given the same media coverage that the Stephen Lawrence murder has for the past twenty years.
/// However AOG's implication in his post was that if the skin colours in the Lawrence affair had been reversed, then it would have been treated diffidently ///
And if you wasn't so bigoted with a chip the size of a boulder on your shoulders, and more educated so as to be able to read, you wouldn't have failed to notice that I also made reference to other black murders that haven't been given the same media coverage that the Stephen Lawrence murder has for the past twenty years.
andy-hughes
/// I will try to ensure that in future, I am not taking up cugels on behalf of another, who quite possibly does not expect, need, or even want such action - without a far stronger issue to take. ///
That promise didn't last long Andy, did it?
I refer of course to this /// I don;t think sp1814 is accusing you of telling a lie, merely that he believes that what you said is not true - a fine but very important point. ///
But please let me explain as I have already done to sp1814, he asked me "/// Are you saying that black-on-black murders aren't investigated and that murderers are walking free"? /// and then said what I had said was untrue.
I had provided proof of the fact that there was a black killing that has gone unsolved, so obviously the murderer or murderers are walking free, therefore was I said was truthful and I was not lying.
/// I will try to ensure that in future, I am not taking up cugels on behalf of another, who quite possibly does not expect, need, or even want such action - without a far stronger issue to take. ///
That promise didn't last long Andy, did it?
I refer of course to this /// I don;t think sp1814 is accusing you of telling a lie, merely that he believes that what you said is not true - a fine but very important point. ///
But please let me explain as I have already done to sp1814, he asked me "/// Are you saying that black-on-black murders aren't investigated and that murderers are walking free"? /// and then said what I had said was untrue.
I had provided proof of the fact that there was a black killing that has gone unsolved, so obviously the murderer or murderers are walking free, therefore was I said was truthful and I was not lying.
One case doesn't make a general pattern, though. There are murders that have gone and will remain unsolved. Some are Black victims, some White, some men, some Women, some gay... No particular group is free from this lack of justice -- and hopefully no particular group suffers more injustice than any other.
AOG
You wrote:
"after all they have already tried, found guilty and imprisoned two members of the gang that committed this act, that is much more than can be said for those more numerous gangs who are guilty of not only white murders but also black on black killings."
You introduced this to the thread, and you have no way of supporting your argument.
What you wrote was wrong.
Furthermore, you're not comparing like for like. You're comparing a case where the murderers are known and a prosecution has failed, to cases where no prosecution has come about because of a lack of evidence.
Anyway, I think I've explained this to the best of my ability. You see this differently. I only hope that you are never in the same position of the Lawrences, or indeed the wife of Philp Lawrence. I doubt whether your version of 'closure' would fit...
You wrote:
"after all they have already tried, found guilty and imprisoned two members of the gang that committed this act, that is much more than can be said for those more numerous gangs who are guilty of not only white murders but also black on black killings."
You introduced this to the thread, and you have no way of supporting your argument.
What you wrote was wrong.
Furthermore, you're not comparing like for like. You're comparing a case where the murderers are known and a prosecution has failed, to cases where no prosecution has come about because of a lack of evidence.
Anyway, I think I've explained this to the best of my ability. You see this differently. I only hope that you are never in the same position of the Lawrences, or indeed the wife of Philp Lawrence. I doubt whether your version of 'closure' would fit...
AOG
Philip Lawrence.
Think about it for minute.
But like I say - I don't think you and I (and some others) think the same on this issue. You cannot persuade me that you're correct, and I certainly cannot do the same to you - so I will bid adeui to this thread.
('adeui' is almost certainly spelled incorrectly...)
Philip Lawrence.
Think about it for minute.
But like I say - I don't think you and I (and some others) think the same on this issue. You cannot persuade me that you're correct, and I certainly cannot do the same to you - so I will bid adeui to this thread.
('adeui' is almost certainly spelled incorrectly...)
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