Where Is Your 'war On Terror' Now President Bush?

[andy-hughes]

After this country slavishly followed the war-monger Bush in his laughably termed 'war on terror' (How can you fight a war against a concept?) and after all the loss of lives as soldiers 'protect' us - it has come to this.

It's as easy as two maniacs with weapons to kill people on British streets.

All that military power, time, money, casualties and deaths on both sides to 'protect' us, and how protected are we really?

Surely the time has come to accept that we can never 'win' this war, but we must try and find a solution to the hatred that drives Moslem extremists to hate the West so much.

If the numpties in the EDL start their 'revenge', then let's not imagine that Afghanistan will start happening right here, right now.

Enough is enough - time to try and sort this out with dialogue, because guns and bombs are not working for anyone.

[ludwig]

The Taliban are about as reasonable as the Nazis jake. The only choice we have to make is whether to leave them alone to get on with whatever attrocities they see fit and batten down our own hatches (Let's call this the New Judge option), or whether to oppose them with force (effectively become your world police). Neither is a good option.

You've got about as much chance of reasonable dialogue with them as you have with a crocodile.

[andy-hughes]

ludwig - "You've got about as much chance of reasonable dialogue with them as you have with a crocodile."

This I feel is the danger we face as a society - our information about the Talbian is based entirely on government propganda and media speculation.

We know nothing about the Taliban, which may well be comprised of a collection of utterly intransigent hate-mongers, together with a (larger?) contingent of individuals who may be open to some dialogue and myth-busting - based on the simple fact that most of them have never left their own area, mush less their own country, and their perception of Westerners is similarly fed by a mix of propoganda, political spin, and ideology.

The way to explore the prospect of dialogue would be to try - or rather, to have tried pre-invasion. They may come to the table just a teesny bit teed off by the fact that Allied forces have put their 'boots on the ground' - one of those lovely 'safe' phrases I pick up regularly from Caroline Wyatt on Radio Four.

[Octavius]

But essentially they are the manifest of tribal warlords, with an engrained dislike and mistrust of Western principles dating back to the Crusades. So assuming they did come to the table, what would be discussed? Us telling them how to run their tribes and treat their people better and stop sending extremist suicidal radicals onto our shores, or we'll put some boots on the ground?

[andy-hughes]

Octavius - it is far too simple to see tribal warlords as some sort of 'noble savages' - they do things differently over there.

It is this attitude of cultural and ethnic snobbery that has got us into this situation in the first place.

The Tribal system has been in place for over seven hundred years, and has seen off every single nation that imagined its intellect, moral and religious integrity, and military firepower to be superior.

Maybe if we approached dialogue with an appropriate degree of understanding and respect for people whose cultural and religios values are different from ours, we would have an atmosphere where some understanding could flourish.

I would not appreciate some foreign anal retentive in a suit telling me how to organise my people to suit his view of the world - I don't imagine any tribal elder would either.

[ludwig]

//Maybe if we approached dialogue with an appropriate degree of understanding and respect for people whose cultural and religios values are different from ours...//

They shot a schoolgirl in the head because they didn't like her going to school.

[Octavius]

Right. So what would be discussed then?

[Brenden]

Andy, it is in principal the same as Neville Chamberlaine signing the Munich Agreement (of appeasement) in 1938 - which Germany had no intention of following. You cannot get into the mindset of people whose whole life is following the Qu'ran - that all peoples who are not muslim are infidels, who can be lied to, cheated and killed in the name of Allah. Hand on heart, could you honestly believe them.

[andy-hughes]

Brenden - my point is that your statement is bred, I suspect, but do correct me if i am wrong - is based on media and government information rather than direct experience.

To say that the tribal warlords are fanantics who cannot be reasoned with is a facile copout based on little or no direct experience.

It does give us the handy get out that -'since they can't be reasoned with, the might as well be invaded and subjgated' - but in that case, you cannot really blame the warloards for taking the same approach - at least as far as they are able.

We have to try talking because as my OP advised - fighting, and bombing and invading has not achieved anything in terms of securing safety for UK and US citizens - so an alternative really has nothing to lose, especially when, in terms of money, equipment, and lives, military and civilian - it is competely free of cost.

[tonyav]

andy, I have not heard of any Taliban leaders asking for any dialogue with any of our forces with 'Boots On The Ground'. However that could also be the media not wanting us to know about it !.

[Brenden]

Am I reading this right Andy, do you believe the Munich Agreement existed and that Italy Germany and ourselves (Mr. Chamberlaine) signed it, or was it something else I have written?

[andy-hughes]

Brenden - as far as i am concerned, bringing the Munich Agreement into this thread produces nothing of any value - the times, circumstances, and situation are about as far away from our current situation as it is possible to get.

[Octavius]

Andy, you have spent a lot of time telling us what you assume to be our lack of understanding and experience of the Taliban - which incidentally is not the case for all of us - without actually formulating a response to my question.

Disregarding (media) preconceptions and assuming they come to the table, in your view what would the dialogue entail? In real terms, not just "lets just accept we are different" etc etc...

[Brenden]

Andy, history has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

[andy-hughes]

Brenden - I am fully aware of that - in my previous posts, i have referred to the conflict in Afgahnistan as being this generation's Viet Nam, and that repeating a set of circumstances in the hope of achieving a different outcome is one definition of insanity.

[dr b]

I thought it was fairly well known that the Taliban had an office in Qatar and there have been discussions with the group:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/18/us-afghanistan-taliban-qatar-idUSBRE93H0DP20130418

Not much happening lately, unfortunately, but it's nice to see the Taliban getting some good shopping done while waiting around.

[Octavius]

Silent on the dialogue then? Oh well.

[RoseofSharon]

Hi Andy, your sentiment is noble and I would like to believe that cooler heads could prevail, but has anybody told the Muslim Extremists or asked them if they would stop their bloodshed and talk. Your right ,it is time to try to turn this around. Don't rely on the polititians or the oil barons of this world to do it though. As long as greeed and Money and Power talk the loudest,I'm afraid there will never be any peace.Maybe we should let the children rule the world, we have not done such a great job of it.

[Zeuhl]

Why should the Taliban 'talk'

We and the americans will leave eventually and the Khazai army is unlikely to retain control of most (if any) of the country

One can understand why the Taliban believe they are winning

[markoffthebike]

In my (work) role in the public housing sector I attended a briefing by West Midlands Counter Terrorism Unit on how to spot those being "radicalised"etc- both myself and a muslim employee (one of the least"extremist" guys I know!)pointed out to them that sometimes,as a result of what us and the americans/Israelis have been up to both historically and nowadays there may well be sections of the Irish/Muslim/Palestinians etc. who have got a beef with the"West"! Although we both assured them that this is in no way morally validates random slaughter in our view(s) it is usually those who have been"wronged" who remember things long after the"civilised"West has moved on- perhaps enlightened dialogue does help rather than random killing with "drones"controlled by computer-geeks in America. As a result of this we were hauled in front of management and told that WM.Counter - Terrorist boyos were very concerned about us! The only worrying conclusion I can draw from this is that, if we were radicalised terrorists intent on slaughtering the innocent,I feel very unprotected by the morons who are supposed to stop such things-mind you they are probably wasting time monitoring my phonecalls and e-communications and missing the really dangerous people!