Deaths On Brecon Beacons

[LoftyLottie]

This has really upset and worried me. I know they have to face terrible conditions in Afghanistan, etc., but surely there should have been more supervision and observation on a training exercise.

What do other ABers think

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/two-military-personnel-die-welsh-exercise-140343537.html#Feore4n

[andy-hughes]

Thanks sqad - much appreciated.

[andy-hughes]

ChillDoubt - I think jake's response is one of someone who feels shocked and saddened by the death of these soldiers, and if I may suggest, has posted with perhaps text coloured by the emotion felt, rather than the facts as they are known thus far.

I do not think the military take lightly the deaths of any personel for any reason, but as advised elsewhere, by the colonel on Radio Four, and other posters on here - deaths of military personel do happen, for a variety of reasons, it is part of the acknowledged hazards of the profession.

No-one thinks it is acceptable, but a degree of reason has to be applied here.

[Sqad]

andy

\\\I think jake's response is one of someone who feels shocked and saddened by the death of these soldiers, and if I may suggest, has posted with perhaps text coloured by the emotion \\

I have to disagree......that is just jake's usual vitriolic left wing rhetoric aimed at anyone who has a differing view.

[andy-hughes]

Fair enough sqad - we will await a response from jake on the issue.

[Sqad]

I am off to my Club now......men only.....miserable lot of "Oldies"........;-)

[ChillDoubt]

I concur 100% with Sqad.
I'd go so far as to say jake revel's in such incidents and is neither shocked nor saddened!

[McMouse]

The physical demands on special forces are sometimes so extreme as to defy belief. Selection for special forces has to be rigorous and occasionally might lead to fatalities.

[LoftyLottie]

Well I actually agree with Jake on this occasion, so I have done what others do make the best answer one I wholeheartedly agree with.

[FredPuli43]

Your club, Sqad?Where you are? Is that a yacht club? If not, it must be some club for other special interests. The mind boggles ! :)

Back to the OP (mind still boggling, so forgive me), even volunteers have to be tested to qualify for their preferred units. When that's tough unit, they are volunteering, having passed, for the risks encountered in this case.

[slaney]

Yes the training is very tough, yes they were soldiers and knew the risks, and yes there are rare sporadic deaths in these circumstances, but these are high numbers - out of one hundred men six needed medical attention two died and one is in a serious condition in hospital - there must have been some unusual factors at play here.

[ChillDoubt]

Oh, and for those who are saying 'they were only TA' I will remind you of one man. Chris Ryan.

Ryan made SAS history with the "longest escape and evasion by an SAS trooper or any other soldier", covering 100 miles (160 km) more than SAS trooper Jack Sillito had in the Sahara Desert in 1942. Ryan completed a 300 kilometres (190 mi) tab from an observation point on the Iraq Main Supply Route (MSR) between Baghdad and North-Western Iraq to the Syrian Border.

Chris Ryan was in 21 SAS before he sneaked via the back door into 22 SAS, having never actually served with a Regular Army unit prior to transfer.

[Just-Jude]

...how many crocs and alligators did he kill with his bare hands just to survive...pure fantasy!

[sherrardk]

I'm with Just Jude on this one, don't think that particular author is regarded as an authority on the subject. I also find it hard to believe that members of the TA are in any way as trained as members of the regular army (they might receive additional training before they serve in area of conflict though).

[ChillDoubt]

Ryan's account of the E&E never met with any criticism and stood up to scrutiny, Just Jude.
Bravo Two Zero however is up there with Lord of the Rings.

For a true account, read Soldier 5.

[LoftyLottie]

An ex SAS chap speaking on the radio today admitted that TA's were far less likely to be as fit as full time personnel. It seems quite logical that this is the case with 'part timers'.

[ladybirder]

I think they are sher, according to Radio 4 at lunchtime. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but pretty sure that's what I heard.

[sherrardk]

I just find it hard to believe that someone who does 'soldiering' on a part-time basis can be as trained as someone who does it on a full-time basis. I live by a special forces camp and know some of the additional training that they do, I can't see how their TA counter-parts can access that training (they may be as fit as full-time forces, but not have the same level of experience).

[LoftyLottie]

A chap who is sitting in a an office five days a week and only part time TA will certainly find getting back into 'soldier' mode more difficult than someone who is a full timer. The bloke on the radio at lunch time did say that he was impressed when he did his trials for the SAS, that two TA's managed to get in as well without having the same amount of constant training.

[Peter Pedant]

Lottie I agree with you
There has been surprisingly low quality comment on parallels between Afghanistan (phew 40'C) and a much cooler Brecon Beacon

[oh they do seem to have perished on the Fan Dance - see wiki ]

When you ramp up the temperature - such as the odd v hot day - or going to a very hot country - the fluid requirement on the first few days may get as high as 10 li. and then as all the holiday makers in hot places notice - you get less thirsty and sweat much less.

This process of acclimatisation was known in the Desert War in 1942 - because my father told me the mid-sixties.

and so you can see that it is quite possible for people to become dehydrated and overheated on a single hot sunny day in Wales

I have to say I was listening to all the Army Old Boys saying this and that - like a 2% mortality for a standard run isnt THAT great you know
and was irresistibly reminded of old men sending young troops to their deaths on the Somme only 100 y ago......

[LoftyLottie]

Hi Peter.

Yes, apparently the first two days being subjected to high temperatures is when people are at their most vulnerable. People is constant high temperatures like Afghanistan acclimatise and cope.