What's A Few Badgers Between Friends?

[AB Editor]

So, they're rolling out a badger cull trial in Gloucester...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23845851

... And there will be protests, naturally. Will you be joining them? Or do you think the cull trial is worthwhile?

[shoota]

The Irish conclusion:

Abstract

We examined the effect of varying levels of badger population control on the prevalence of Mycobacterium bovis infection in badgers in four counties of Ireland. In the ‘Removal’ and ‘Buffer’ areas, proactive culling was conducted to substantially reduce and subsequently maintain badger populations at a low level for five years. In the ‘Reference’ areas, localised reactive culling was conducted in association with herd breakdowns. The infection status of badgers was determined using bacteriology. A total of 2696 badgers were recruited into the study, and 19.0% were found to be infected with M. bovis. The two population control strategies had differing effects on the subsequent prevalence of tuberculosis in badger populations. Proactive culling led to a long term decrease in the prevalence of tuberculosis in the re-emergent populations. Although there was an overall decline in the disease prevalence, no consistent trend in disease prevalence as a result of reactive culling was observed.

That's from here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0034528807002767

[AB Editor]

"As far as I'm concerned there has been absolutely no definitive proof that badgers pass TB to cattle, in fact I've seen suggestion that cattle pass it to Badgers. I just find it abhorrent that killing them is accepted as a way to resolve an unproved problem - typical men all of you."

I think that last part just goes to show you're not really up for debate... However:

Cattle might pass it to badgers, do you have proof of that? They might pass it back and forth in fact, like TB ping-pong. It doesn't change the problem which is that there is an increase in Bovine TB and there is some evidence that it might be related to badgers.

Others have pointed out that the badger population has grown significantly. Sometimes countries cull animals because of "over population" would you support culling to stop badgers starving to death?

This is an attempt to prove that culling works as a solution - if it doesn't work, excellent, we'll have to find another way.

I don't think anyone is joyfully heading out to shoot badgers, nor is it anything to do with their gender.

[emmie]

meanwhile they will have culled 5,000 or so for a maybe...

[emmie]

this wouldn't be the first badger cull, if so did they not discover before what causes this disease, if it's a proven case, which it doesn't seem to be, then let them make a 100 percent case.

[shoota]

I think that in order to make a decision one should not rely solely on information gleaned from the emotive press releases of animal welfare organisations because there is another side to the story; a very valid one.

[shoota]

Have you not read my posts Emmie?

[AB Editor]

No one finds it particularly palatable.

Will anyone be giving up eating British beef until they've finished their culling experiment?

[emmie]

what animal rights, they don't have any, we kill livestock to eat, we or the vet decides when it's time to put the pet down, if they are ill, suffering perhaps. We decide when to cull badgers, deer, rabbits, and any animal that seems to have grown too large to manage, or that may impact on other wildlife, we kill animals by the millions on the roads, our pets kill millions more. they have no rights. So some human beings do occasionally stand up and say that they don't agree with it, good for them i say.

[AB Editor]

Should wild animals have the same rights as domesticated animals?

[viv38]

"good for them I say" ....... so do I.

[emmie]

animals should be treated with respect, if you treated a human being as some people do to animals, then one would end up in jail... sorry i don't like what is happening, why should i say otherwise.

[Old_Geezer]

Animals have as many rights as the dominant species on the planet decide they have. Without a power group making the rules none of us have rights, but we believe there is such a thing as morality and so try to apply what we think is correct. Clearly it makes no sense to assign rights that cause problems with the way nature works. Therefore we accept, possibly with regret, the existence of the food chain and how we omnivores are in a position to consume anything. Any issues with that should be taken up with your favourite diety. But this does not mean other species have no rights at all. Many think causing unnecessary suffering is immoral so there are rules for that, and these are considered rights for the creatures concerned.

[shoota]

The vaccine solution:
The government has funded, developed and licensed an injectable badger vaccine, but it has its limitations. Badgers need to be trapped before they can be vaccinated, and the process will need to be repeated annually for many years, which makes it extremely expensive to use. The vaccine is not 100% effective in preventing TB, and is ineffective in animals that are already infected with TB and that will continue to spread disease. So current vaccines will not be as effective as culling in reducing spread of the disease from badgers to cattle.

Thats from this excellent article:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/oct/11/badger-cull-furore

[AB Editor]

"animals should be treated with respect, if you treated a human being as some people do to animals, then one would end up in jail... sorry i don't like what is happening, why should i say otherwise."

Er... no one is asking you to say otherwise, we're trying to have a discussion?

Animal abuse is abhorrent, which is why I ask about domesticated vs wild? In the case of domesticated animals humans are often responsible for the base needs of the animals - however in the wild violence, starvation and fear are all normal parts of existence.

I just wonder what version of equivalent human rights you would confer to animals?

[Old_Geezer]

Depends on the species Ed. Society can debate each and circumstances in turn.

One thing to bear in mind, if we do not make a decent stab at this whilst we are in control what position will our species be in if we encounter an ET who is many times more evolved and powerful than we ? Do we then accept we have no rights after all ?

[shoota]

And finally:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animal-diseases/a-z/bovine-tb/badgers/culling/
which gives the whole story.

[Ellipsis]

There is good evidence to suggest that a cull would work, for example:

http://www.bovinetb.info/newzealand.php

But let's say that badgers infected with TB are able to pass this infection on cattle - is this sufficient reason to kill badgers ...

a) that DO have TB?
b) that DON'T have TB?

Should we kill every badger in the UK if that's what it takes to eradicate bovine TB? If not, where and why should we stop?

My answers:

Yes
Errr
No
Hmmm

Not easy!

When it comes to killing badgers, it's already the case that it must be done "humanely". They used to be gassed with poison but this is no longer allowed. (Syria comes to mind, sadly)

[shoota]

This is not going to be just a case of shoot a bunch of badgers and leave it at that.
Cattle vaccines are being developed.
Badger vaccines are being developed.
Any farmer who avails himself of the cull option also has to take steps to physically separate his herd from badgers.
Given that something like 20% of badgers may be infected, eradicating the disease is in the long term interest of the badgers themselves.
It's a lot of reading but ploughing through my links actually leaves the only possible objection to a badger cull as the 'cute little animal' syndrome.

[AB Editor]

"One thing to bear in mind, if we do not make a decent stab at this whilst we are in control what position will our species be in if we encounter an ET who is many times more evolved and powerful than we ? Do we then accept we have no rights after all ?"

I think it has been fairly well documented that whenever an advanced creature/society meets a less advanced one it's generally devastating for the less advanced creature/society

Do we accept it? Probably not. Will we have a choice? Certainly not!

[emmie]

so they are to be shot instead
all animals, whether domesticated or wild should be treated with as much respect as one can muster. I don't agree with any animal cruelty, zoo's, circus, thankfully most animal ones have gone in Britain, or wildlife parks, perhaps they are a way to maintain some wild animals that will likely be poached, killed into extinction, like the rhino or Tiger,
but many wild animals have had the freedom to hunt, roam, taken away, by dint of our growing populations.