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The Saga Of The Veil, Continued
Further to AoGs recent post on wearing the Niqab at Birmingham Metropolitan University
(thread here)
http://
and another thread on the Muslim woman ordered by the judge to remove her veil, which I believe had a thread here also, although I cannot find it - it now appears that Birmingham Metropolitan University have now reversed themselves and will allow personal items of religious significance after all. Is this a humiliating climbdown, as described, or a sensible response to a protest against what some might have described as a draconian measure?
http://
In that Birmingham Mail article, it also goes on to say that the judge who ordered the woman to remove her veil has also reversed himself and relented. This was also covered in the Guardian.
http://
Again, sensible response or cowardly climbdown?
(thread here)
http://
and another thread on the Muslim woman ordered by the judge to remove her veil, which I believe had a thread here also, although I cannot find it - it now appears that Birmingham Metropolitan University have now reversed themselves and will allow personal items of religious significance after all. Is this a humiliating climbdown, as described, or a sensible response to a protest against what some might have described as a draconian measure?
http://
In that Birmingham Mail article, it also goes on to say that the judge who ordered the woman to remove her veil has also reversed himself and relented. This was also covered in the Guardian.
http://
Again, sensible response or cowardly climbdown?
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Zuehl - "being surrounded by 200 /men with no shirts and beer bellies/
being surrounded by 200 people wearing black hoods over their faces
which is most likely to cause you /fear and suspicion/?"
I notice that you have carefully replaced the word women (who actually wear the veil) with 'people - to add wweight to your point.
So - if we are comparing like with like - being surrounded by 200 women in veils xompared with 200 shirtless men with beer bellies - I'll take the women every time thanks!
My experience shows me that a crowd of shirtless men with beer bellies are often found at football matches looking fore trouble - i have no recollection of groups of Muslim women behaving in that way - so women every time for me.
Thank you for asking.
being surrounded by 200 people wearing black hoods over their faces
which is most likely to cause you /fear and suspicion/?"
I notice that you have carefully replaced the word women (who actually wear the veil) with 'people - to add wweight to your point.
So - if we are comparing like with like - being surrounded by 200 women in veils xompared with 200 shirtless men with beer bellies - I'll take the women every time thanks!
My experience shows me that a crowd of shirtless men with beer bellies are often found at football matches looking fore trouble - i have no recollection of groups of Muslim women behaving in that way - so women every time for me.
Thank you for asking.
andy
I used the word people because to be gender neutral not to /add weight/
why do you think it is OK for women to behave in a way that if men did it, would be intimidating and threatening?
And would the wearing of black ski masks by all of our police officers at all times not affect your view of the police or influence your perception of connection with them?
....regardless of whether they are male or female officers
I used the word people because to be gender neutral not to /add weight/
why do you think it is OK for women to behave in a way that if men did it, would be intimidating and threatening?
And would the wearing of black ski masks by all of our police officers at all times not affect your view of the police or influence your perception of connection with them?
....regardless of whether they are male or female officers
Zeuhl - you are putting up scenarios that are simply not valid in order to protect your viewpoint.
"why do you think it is OK for women to behave in a way that if men did it, would be intimidating and threatening?"
Cultural experience - a large group of beer-bellied men can often lead to violence, not by any means every time, but you have to conceed that scenarios like that feature regularly on our news prorammes. However, a large group of Muslim women, which is, contrary to fear and ignorance caused by extemists, a faith that preaches peace and tolerance are unlikely to suddenly decide to erupt into violent behaviour - again, no recorded instances of which I am aware.
"And would the wearing of black ski masks by all of our police officers at all times not affect your view of the police or influence your perception of connection with them?"
Possibly, but that is about as likely as every Tesco checkput operator wearing a black ski mask, or aliens arriving from Mars in black ski masks, so that is frankly a pointless scenario to suggest.
"why do you think it is OK for women to behave in a way that if men did it, would be intimidating and threatening?"
Cultural experience - a large group of beer-bellied men can often lead to violence, not by any means every time, but you have to conceed that scenarios like that feature regularly on our news prorammes. However, a large group of Muslim women, which is, contrary to fear and ignorance caused by extemists, a faith that preaches peace and tolerance are unlikely to suddenly decide to erupt into violent behaviour - again, no recorded instances of which I am aware.
"And would the wearing of black ski masks by all of our police officers at all times not affect your view of the police or influence your perception of connection with them?"
Possibly, but that is about as likely as every Tesco checkput operator wearing a black ski mask, or aliens arriving from Mars in black ski masks, so that is frankly a pointless scenario to suggest.
/Possibly, but that is about as likely as every Tesco checkput operator wearing a black ski mask, or aliens arriving from Mars in black ski masks, so that is frankly a pointless scenario to suggest./
Think again andy
Officers patrolling the streets in 'paramilitary' garb are a common occurrence in many countries - so it is hardly a far fetched idea
And guess what, in those countries, public perceptions and expectations of police approachability, empathy and helpfulness are on a much lower level
so can you answer NJ's similar point earlier?
would you be comfortable attending a Court where the Judge, Prosecutor and Jury were all wearing hoods and masks?
Think again andy
Officers patrolling the streets in 'paramilitary' garb are a common occurrence in many countries - so it is hardly a far fetched idea
And guess what, in those countries, public perceptions and expectations of police approachability, empathy and helpfulness are on a much lower level
so can you answer NJ's similar point earlier?
would you be comfortable attending a Court where the Judge, Prosecutor and Jury were all wearing hoods and masks?
Zeuhl - "Officers patrolling the streets in 'paramilitary' garb are a common occurrence in many countries - so it is hardly a far fetched idea"
It's not a far-fetched ideea - in many other countries, just this one, and the debate is about modes of dress in this country - so once again your argument is spurious - as is the notion of judges wearing masks.
You may as well ask me what my thoughts would be if no-one was allowed to draw curtains any more in the interests of 'transparency' - it's a novel concept, but it has no basis for debate on this thread.
It's not a far-fetched ideea - in many other countries, just this one, and the debate is about modes of dress in this country - so once again your argument is spurious - as is the notion of judges wearing masks.
You may as well ask me what my thoughts would be if no-one was allowed to draw curtains any more in the interests of 'transparency' - it's a novel concept, but it has no basis for debate on this thread.
I think the college wrong to back down, they should have stuck to their guns. I think the judge wrong too, for reversing his original decision.
Garb that covers the face has no place in our society and culture,except maybe for extreme sports or extreme weather or what have you. It certainly has no place in the classroom or any other place where the public need to interact.
I dislike this idea that the cultural or religious prejudices of the individual should take precedence over the cultural norms within our secular society in areas of human interaction or health and safety etc, especially when in this instance the item in question is discriminatory and actually not even explicitly required by the religion in question.
Mind you, I do not like where my own argument is going, in a way - it does not seem right either to require the police to literally become the fashion police, arresting or even potentially forcibly removing items of clothing from otherwise innocent citizens.
And this argument about being able to see the face applies most definitely to members of the police forces, and protesters too, come to that.
Garb that covers the face has no place in our society and culture,except maybe for extreme sports or extreme weather or what have you. It certainly has no place in the classroom or any other place where the public need to interact.
I dislike this idea that the cultural or religious prejudices of the individual should take precedence over the cultural norms within our secular society in areas of human interaction or health and safety etc, especially when in this instance the item in question is discriminatory and actually not even explicitly required by the religion in question.
Mind you, I do not like where my own argument is going, in a way - it does not seem right either to require the police to literally become the fashion police, arresting or even potentially forcibly removing items of clothing from otherwise innocent citizens.
And this argument about being able to see the face applies most definitely to members of the police forces, and protesters too, come to that.
You seem to be being obtuse andy
My point is that dealing with people who allow us to see their face is a profoundly different experience to dealing with someone concealing themselves
/and the debate is about modes of dress in this country /
OK.
Well for the majority of people in this country for the past thousand years or three, the 'modes of dress' that include wearing a face covering are just those of Highwaymen and Bank Robbers
Probably because people haven't been the subject of someone else's ownership and monopoly of 'seeing'
My point is that dealing with people who allow us to see their face is a profoundly different experience to dealing with someone concealing themselves
/and the debate is about modes of dress in this country /
OK.
Well for the majority of people in this country for the past thousand years or three, the 'modes of dress' that include wearing a face covering are just those of Highwaymen and Bank Robbers
Probably because people haven't been the subject of someone else's ownership and monopoly of 'seeing'
http://
/// More than 9,000 people signed an online petition set up by NUS Black Students' Campaign calling on the college's principal Dr Christine Braddock to remove the ban. ///
Well it looks as-if they have won once again, courtesy this time by the NUS Black Student's Campaign.
Makes one wonder if we also have a NUS White Student's Campaign, to look after the interests of white students, in Muslim countries, perhaps some white female students would wish to go to a Middle Eastern collage wearing shorts, would they also be as tolerant regarding that request?
/// More than 9,000 people signed an online petition set up by NUS Black Students' Campaign calling on the college's principal Dr Christine Braddock to remove the ban. ///
Well it looks as-if they have won once again, courtesy this time by the NUS Black Student's Campaign.
Makes one wonder if we also have a NUS White Student's Campaign, to look after the interests of white students, in Muslim countries, perhaps some white female students would wish to go to a Middle Eastern collage wearing shorts, would they also be as tolerant regarding that request?
The final episode of the cult 1960s series “The Prisoner” features a form of trial where Patrick McGoohan (No. 6) faces a court where most of the participants are clothed from head to foot in a white hooded robe with their faces covered by a black and white mask. I can’t find a decent still of the entire scene but the second picture on this page shows one of the participants and will give you some idea:
http://
The entire scene exudes an air of hostility and fear and this is considerably heightened by the dress code of those involved.. So it is with this Muslim form of dress. My example is only fiction, I know, but it demonstrates quite clearly the sense of menace that can be portrayed by people in masks. If the entire courtroom consisted of people similarly dressed it would certainly present an aura of menace to many people. Concealing one’s face is not conducive to good social interaction and, like it or not, introduces elements of fear, suspicion, misunderstanding and mistrust among many people. The woman involved should have some consideration for other people taking part in the proceedings (many of whom may not particularly wish to be there) but of course she doesn’t. She does not have to appear as she does, she chooses to and her choice should not override the feelings of all the other people involved.
Oh, and we’ll probably be doing this all again on Monday. The latest decision related only to the pre-trial proceedings. On Monday the judge is due to rule on whether the woman can appear masked up at her trial.
http://
The entire scene exudes an air of hostility and fear and this is considerably heightened by the dress code of those involved.. So it is with this Muslim form of dress. My example is only fiction, I know, but it demonstrates quite clearly the sense of menace that can be portrayed by people in masks. If the entire courtroom consisted of people similarly dressed it would certainly present an aura of menace to many people. Concealing one’s face is not conducive to good social interaction and, like it or not, introduces elements of fear, suspicion, misunderstanding and mistrust among many people. The woman involved should have some consideration for other people taking part in the proceedings (many of whom may not particularly wish to be there) but of course she doesn’t. She does not have to appear as she does, she chooses to and her choice should not override the feelings of all the other people involved.
Oh, and we’ll probably be doing this all again on Monday. The latest decision related only to the pre-trial proceedings. On Monday the judge is due to rule on whether the woman can appear masked up at her trial.
Zeuhl - "Well for the majority of people in this country for the past thousand years or three, the 'modes of dress' that include wearing a face covering are just those of Highwaymen and Bank Robbers"
That may be true -and for the vast number of Asians in the sub-continent. for the past thousand years or three, the idea of the British were just those who invaded and oppressed them.
But times have moved on, in all areas - and using these historical references does not in my view bolster your argument in any way.
We are a modern, forward-thinking, tolerant society - and this notion that other races have to dress to conform with our cultural acceptances is utterly at odds with that - and in my view represents a sense of arrogance which i find unacceptable.
The 'when in Rome' argument - voiced by a population who would be hard pressed to say anything more than 'Yes', 'No' and 'More beer ...' in any language other than their own is simply outdated.
We do not 'own' this country, we are fortunate and privelidged enough to be able to live in it, and enjoy irs freedoms, and I don't believe any of us as undividuals is entitled to deny others the rights and freedoms that we enjoy - and certainly not the self-appointed 'guardians' of our culture, the EDL.
If being 'British' meant being like them, I would emigrate tomorrow!
That may be true -and for the vast number of Asians in the sub-continent. for the past thousand years or three, the idea of the British were just those who invaded and oppressed them.
But times have moved on, in all areas - and using these historical references does not in my view bolster your argument in any way.
We are a modern, forward-thinking, tolerant society - and this notion that other races have to dress to conform with our cultural acceptances is utterly at odds with that - and in my view represents a sense of arrogance which i find unacceptable.
The 'when in Rome' argument - voiced by a population who would be hard pressed to say anything more than 'Yes', 'No' and 'More beer ...' in any language other than their own is simply outdated.
We do not 'own' this country, we are fortunate and privelidged enough to be able to live in it, and enjoy irs freedoms, and I don't believe any of us as undividuals is entitled to deny others the rights and freedoms that we enjoy - and certainly not the self-appointed 'guardians' of our culture, the EDL.
If being 'British' meant being like them, I would emigrate tomorrow!
then you will see that the groups that wanted to have segregation of the sexes for their beliefs, in the universities will get it, that is the slippery slope, how about telling them, please do as the college, school, University asks, or leave. It has been a momentous battle to get women into education and particularly higher education, in Britain, so why should a little band of political activists, which is what they are, get their way.
andy-hughes
/// So - if we are comparing like with like - being surrounded by 200 women in veils xompared with 200 shirtless men with beer bellies - I'll take the women every time thanks! ///
I don't know if someone else has pointed this out but how would you know they were women if the were wearing the niqab, apart from the fact that veiled women can be just as threatening as shirtless men, (and I presume you are referring to white men), wasn't a MP stabbed by a veiled Muslim woman in his surgery?
/// So - if we are comparing like with like - being surrounded by 200 women in veils xompared with 200 shirtless men with beer bellies - I'll take the women every time thanks! ///
I don't know if someone else has pointed this out but how would you know they were women if the were wearing the niqab, apart from the fact that veiled women can be just as threatening as shirtless men, (and I presume you are referring to white men), wasn't a MP stabbed by a veiled Muslim woman in his surgery?
AOG - "apart from the fact that veiled women can be just as threatening as shirtless men, (and I presume you are referring to white men), wasn't a MP stabbed by a veiled Muslim woman in his surgery?"
veiled women as threatening as shirtless men - are you serious?
And please don't assume I am referring to white men.
And where is my response to my last post to you please?
veiled women as threatening as shirtless men - are you serious?
And please don't assume I am referring to white men.
And where is my response to my last post to you please?
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