How would you stop so many immigrants entering Britain?

[Insane Wally]

870,000 here illegally according to todays papers, & no doubt some of those are on one benefit or another.

[Loosehead]

The best way is to enforce the current EU law on the subject. Essentially it says that they should apply for assylum in the first safe country. 99.9% of the time that is not Britain, we are legally entitled to send them back to, France etc and from there they can apply the rules as well, so they end up in whatever was the first safe country. No law changes necessary, just enforce the ones we've got. We don't of course because we have too many liberal officials and other assorted do gooders, not too mention the distastrous HR act. No wonder they come here, softest touch of all!

[acw]

At risk of getting screamed at again (am pretty scared of entering a discussion in which Loosehead is involved anyway), I honestly feel that ID cards would help.  Obviously it wouldn't stop them getting in, but if we had them, and enforced them properly, these people would need them in order to function and survive in this country.  It would clearly need to be coupled with a rigorous crack down on "paid in cash" work that is illegal for taxation purposes anyway.  This is just my opinion - I know it will get yelled down or misinterpreted or used in some way for people to be rude and nasty, but I've said it now - so there!

So long as people bear in mind during the course of this discussion that the question is about ILLEGAL immigrants.  Legal ones (which make up a tiny %age of those who enter this country) are a different matter entirely, and anyone tarring them with the same bad brush as the illegals should think carefully before doing so. 

[Oneeyedvic]

acw - am curious as to how an illegal alien would need an id card to function in this country?

They wouldn't ned one to rent a property, buy food or clothing, work on the black market / cash in hand jobs. They wouldn't need one to buy a car, get insurance etc.

The only way they would need one is to get a 'propoer' job (for which they need a National Insurance card now) or for medical care. Am also curious as to if a person is on the street and needs medical care, if it would be withheld until id was produced?

I must confess that I agree with Loosehead. All to often we overlook the obvious - we have the laws in place to deal with it - we just don't enforce them

[acw]

I did say that cash-in had jobs would need to be sorted out - please please read what I say before making this digs at my arguements.  This is why I hate this site sometimes.  My point - I feel I have to repeat it - is that if we enforced the existing laws making black market labour illegal, then it would be harder for these people to get work.  They would need an ID card for benefits, and with the option of dodgy cash-in-hand work removed, the appeal of GB/UK as a place of assylum would fall for those people who come here illegally. 

Perhaps it would be a better system if you DID need an ID card to rent property, certainly to get insurance or a driving licence.  I certainly think that, with the exception of A&E, medical care should only be given to those with ID cards, and that at the end of the treatment the option should be pay up, or produce an ID card or an E111 or equivalent document. 

I agree that existing laws should be enforced.  However, one obvious fact often overlooked is that this is not a costless excerices.  There is such a thing as an efficient level of lawlessness that we all have to accept.  If you want these laws better enforced, you must accept a higher rate of taxation.  If you are happy with that, and feel that the benefits outweigh the costs (but are equal at the margins) then you'll agree with what I said in this paragraph. 

I can see that this is just going to turn into another foreigner bashing exercise, more's the pity. 

[Oneeyedvic]

"i can see this is going to turn into another foreigner bashing excercise...".

I'm obviously missing something here. Loosehead has referred to using existing laws as have I. not sure how that is detrimental to 'foreigners'

 

That is why I hate this site sometimes....

:-o

[Oneeyedvic]

seriously though, i take on board what you are saying about money.....but at what cost do you thnk id cards will come.

Current estimates from LSE cost cards at �120.00 per person. Even the governments' figure are higher than the �30 originally suggested.

Then, if we want hospitals, insurance companies, etc to also have access to some parts of this information, that again will cost. Each hospital will now need extra people on board to go round checking ids.

As for renting a property - not sure that private landlords will have biometric readers. again there is a cost and security issue.

This (and previous) governments have not got the best of records on technology and security.

 

My final point would be that this should also be self funding (eventually) - after all fraud does cost the economy.

[Gevs1966]

Agree with acw but unfortunately there will always be people who pay cash in hand for workers and there will also be people who would rent out their flats/houses without seeing an ID card just to make a quick buck and I fear that no matter how much you crack down it is largely unenforceable

[mullein1]

i would have tighter border control no matter what it cost..and i.d cards also..and more people inspecting places where they may be getting cash in hand with no questions asked..and sentances and heavy fines for those employing these illegal immigrants..even if they are not on benefit i am sure at some time they will take good use of the nhs what the hard working man pays for..and thats just draining it for us that pay for it so we get shoddy service and long waiting lists..

[Loosehead]

Hi acw, not screaming honest! Id cards I'm sure would help but that's another discussion. You are a lawyer so I was wondering if you could help with the reasons why we don't ever seem to do what I suggested in my first post? I mean when someone arrives here and applies for asylum, however that is done, why don't we just send them back to France or where ever. If they arrived from outside the EU then process the application.

PS: Please don't be "scared", I enjoy our discussions, It'd be pretty boring if we agreed all the time!

[Dom Tuk]

You really cannot stop people from coming here. As long as there are planes/trains and buses coming here there will be immigrants on them. Now you can do whatever you want with them but if you do not know where they came from (like which country they belong to) there is very little you can do. In the 90s and even now, every east African was a somali (dont believe me read the headlines in the past 2 days).The chinese and the Indian govts will not take back their people. Now if someone came here and said he was from mars what will you do. What we are seeing is the practical application of the theory that 'if everyone robbed banks we would all get away with it'. The immigrants feed the service industry and all your local takeaways can feed you at 1990 prices because of these immigrants who work illegally for a pittance. Now I am happy with that. I am happy that they pick our strawberries and lettuces and also happy that most of them are hardworking people and not your local chavs. Well we ruled the world for a long time, now the world is here to visit and say hello.

[Grunty]

I am impressed with the accuracy of Loosehead's research, but 99.9% does seem a bit high.

[Dom Tuk]

Loosehead, how do you prove they came from France or wherever. They all say they got on a lorry lets say in Azerbaijan (cannot be proved)and did not know what countries they passed thru until they reached good ole England. So where will you send them to. They were not in Italy, France or switzerland. If they came by plane they have no baggage tags or tickets so where will you send themto. its a perfectly organised crime and 800,000 have got away with it.

[Shipstabber]

Refugees make up a very small proportion of the illegal immigrants in this country. The vast majority of illegal immigrants have come here on legitimate tourist/study visas and stayed after they have expired.

 

The best way to identify these people is to go round the bars and clubs of London and ask all staff with an antipodean accent to produce their passport/visas, as people from Australia and New Zealand, by far make up the largest group of illegals! 

[acw]

Loosehead - as I'm sure you will appreciate, having a law degree doesn't mean that a graduate has extensive knowledge in all fields.  I have always taken a greater interest in commercial subjects and immigration law is not oe of the 7 compulsory core modules for a law degree.  I therefore have never studied immigration law and wouldn't like to attempt an "educated opinon" on the subject.

However, my "intelligent layman's" opinion is that it again comes down to cost.  As other users have pointed out, a lot of people "sneak in" on boats etc and cannot be checked.  I'd personally like to see better use of passport control at Eurostar and ferry terminals - that would perhaps help to some extent.

I never suggested that ID cards come for free - I too can and do read the papers!  (Well - the news on the internet from reliable sources - but it's the same thing!).  I just think that all too often people are afriad of short run costs and are not prepared to think of the long-run benefits. 

I know that landlords won't all have scanners for ID cards, but if they were at least obliged to take down an NI number AND either passport, driving licence, or ID card (with ID card a necessity for UK citizen, if they are compulsory) then it would at least be easier to trace people if necessary.  This would be useful for the police too. 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1682427,00.html

That may be of interest to you all.

Does anyone have any stats on the number of legal and illegal immigrants living in any of the other MSs?

[Dom Tuk]

acw....a serious chink in your hypothesis about id cards. How will a landlord in your example know whether an Id card is genuine or a forgery??. Same goes for passports. Did you know that you could buy a top quality Dutch ID card on a pavement in all major towns of pakistan (and other countries) for a pittance. The id cards are displayed in plastic pouches and all you do is bring a photo and it will be placed in the card and the quality is so good that a trained expert will take a while to detect it with special equipment. So what is the landlord to do.

[Loosehead]

Well Dom I'm talking about the asylum seekers that arrive from the EU countries and then claim asylum. You know because they arrive on some form of transport that arrived from an EN country. France is safe so if they came from France they should have applied in France now if they got to France via Italy then France should send them back to Italy. I'm not talking about where they originally came from. Now if someone flies here from outside the EU then we process the application. I'm not trying to cover all possibilities here just the one I mentioned. All I'm saying is, even when there is a clear case of someone who should have applied in some other EU country then why do we not enforce the current EU law. We seem to enforce all the others, one of the few that might actually help us, we ignore!

[Loosehead]

For EN read EU above

[Dom Tuk]

Loosehead, to answer your question about coming from France. The asylum seeker can only be sent back after establishing that he/she has come from France. Just because the lorry came from France does not mean that the asylum seeker knew he was in France. the law states that the seeker should have claimed asylum at the first safe place. He says I was not aware i was in a safe place (in fact i was not aware where i was) until i reached England. We all know it is a lie but what can you do??. there you are. i will now recuse myself this discussion.

[acw]

Dom Tuk - I'm not sure if I should bother defending my opinion if you're not going to wait around to allow me that small thing. 

[Loosehead]

What acw said!