Civil liberties...take your pick

[MargeB]

Which civil liberties would you now give up if asked, that you would not have given up last month? Biometric ID cards? Microchip implant? Centralized car tracking? Frequent police stop and search?

[georgit79]

I think ID cards is the big one, isn't it? This is now really going to happen apparently.

It is often said that rushed legislation is bad legislation. When legislation starts out as badly as Blunkett's ID Card scheme and is then rushed it can only get worse.

The imposition of ID Cards on innocent British citizens is a major constitutional change for which the Government has no mandate. Any vote on such a controversial issue must be a free vote.

[woofgang]

don't mind having an ID card provided that I don't have to shell out for it (already have one for work)

[Gevs1966]

georgit79 if they are "innocent British citizens" whats the problem with having an ID card??

I agree with woofgang though, paying for it is wrong.

[jake-the-peg]

I wonder if you'll mind ID cards when you get your first fine for having forgotten to bring it with you when you go out?

[Gevs1966]

As far as I was aware on the spot fines were not going to be put into place. A bit like if you get stopped in your car but don't have your driving license on you.

Besides which, I'd like toithink that I wouldn't give the police any reason to ask to see it!

[Peahead66]

For everyone who is up for an ID card i would advise having a read through this site http://www.no2id.net/ I bet you will change your mind when you realise that this is not just a piece of plastic but a national database on a scale that exists nowhere else in the world. You will be required to provide at least 50 pieces of information about yourself and if you dont comply or keep your information up to date at all times you will be subject to a �2500 fine (im not joking have you read the bill?). This is Hitlers fantasy guys and the resistance is growing! And forget all the governments arguments about why we need it each and everyone has been challenged by credible professionals.

[mfewell]

Very honestly, I would give up all these 'liberties' now and would have years ago. There are greater liberties, those of not being stabbed to death on a bus because I didn't like being pelted with chips, or being blown up on a train because someone doesn't like my culture or religion. Those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear, indeed wish actively to contribute to the security of our society and whole way of life.

[Peahead66]

And how on earth would having your freedom taken away make you more safe? There are plenty of innocent people with reason to hide and plenty to fear such as victims of domestic abuse, witnesses to crime etc. As for giving up your freedom for a little security you are basically spitting upon the graves of generations of people who have fought to protect those freedoms and died to protect them.  

[ianess]

MargeB being as non-confrontational as ever?

Personally speaking I think that a microchip implant is a brilliant idea.    Did you see "Logan's Run"?   Just think of the problems that could solve!

[Tabby]

Hey,

Why don't we all get chipped at birth, and be done with it. Then we can all be tracked everywhere.

If you aren't doing anything wrong, why worry??

[mfewell]

It all raises an hilarious (got a f----g H in it) vision of a huge screen with 60 million dots of us being continually tracked by secret agents. mfewell's just going to Asda, track him ! I've lost my freedom not when it is known that I've gone to Asda but when I get blown up on the way.

[jake-the-peg]

The problem is that this is all "thin end of the wedge stuff". You may not be being told that there will be fines for not carrying them or keeping them up to date but this is all "enabling legislation" that means it gives the Home Secretatry power to introduce measures at his discretion.

My wife's family were Jews in Autria and fled to Ireland in the 30's - strangely none of them think that "people with nothing to hide have nothing to fear".

Can't imagine why 

[jenstar]

You know what's really depressing? Reading "1984" and realising that many people in this country actually want to live in a society like that.

[Gevs1966]

Jake, the persecution of the jews in the early part of the last century is completely irrelevant in this discussion.

[LeMarchand]

From the NO2ID site, details of the proposed cards contents:

Date and place of birth and, if the person has died, the date of death

Do we have to carry them into the afterlife?

[MargeB]

If you want to claim your 7 virgins, yes.

I think Jake's reference to Jews is entirely pertinent, a perfect example of how the State does not necessarily have the best intentions for all of its populous all of the time. The current nazi party, excuse me, labour party would take all they could, given the chance.

[jake-the-peg]

It's an extreme example I grant you but I do think that to assume that if you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide is a trifle naive.

I'm also pretty confident that these will become compusorary to carry very shortly after their introduction - or else what is the point? we can all produce sufficient id on demand already.

And if it's compulsory then there have to be penalties for not complying.

I can see this being about as popular as speed cameras in ten years time.

[Ivankafka]

This discussion goes nowhere when you get absurd comments like : "As for giving up your freedom for a little security you are basically spitting upon the graves of generations of people who have fought to protect those freedoms and died to protect them."  And: "The current nazi party, excuse me, labour party would take all they could, given the chance."

I'm not necessarily for ID cards, but I would certainly give up a small amount of my freedom in order to gain a little more security. We did this in World War 2, and those who fought and died realised this and didn't jeapordise our national security by constantly maintaining their individual "rights" all the time. They knew that they had responsibilities too.

Some are more concerned with upholding extreme Liberal ideology, no matter how many lives are lost.


 

 

 

[MargeB]

It's not all about "rights" (sic: your inverted commas) and "duties". Its also about the individual versus the state. The state is set up by the individuals for the individuals, and ultimately the individual and his/her freedoms are the most important thing. I should be able to live my life with as few encroachments from the State as possible. CCTV cameras everywhere, high profile policing, ID cards, snooping, closed-government, unaccountable government decisions, lying government, random stop and search all encroach on my liberty as an individual. Some have to be taken at a cost, but all should be seriously questioned. This (nazi) government FORGETS this. Blunkett TOLD us that we would have ID cards, we TOLD him to **** off, and he had to back down, and admitted such.

The approach of the current "government" to all levels of civil liberties and the rights of the individual are getting very close to 'Nazi'. YOU will do what THEY think is best because THEY know better. **** *** Tony.

[rooftrouser]

Isn't "extreme liberal" an oxymoron? At any rate I think there is a danger in accepting a simple "id card = fewer lives lost" argument. There simply doesn't seem to be any evidence to support it. There is also a danger in seeing this as a "small amount of freedom". My non- British European friends have always carried id cards ( a legacy of WWII?) but these are very simple, have a few minimal physical details, a signature and a photo. At any given time, these days, I carry a wealth of identifiying detail anyway including cards with photos and signatures. What is proposed for the id cards in this country goes beyond anything which has gone before, anywhere. I am not, in principle, against carrying an id card but I am concerned that we will more and more easily accept constant surveilance and control as part of our lives and over time slip into a kind of 1984 state without noticing. Consider - already electronic communication is monitored, almost every part of towns and cities is covered by TV cameras. Now these things are done for the protection of citizens and I am as grateful as anyone for the efforts of the police and other authorities to save me from being shot or blown up but let's not stop questioning the need for, or merits of, reduced freedoms. What comes next? Tighter control of media? Even greater censorship? Regular stop and search? Extensive tagging of persons or vehicles? Having to answer to authority for the anti-government tone of your AB posts? O.K. it sounds paranoid but let's just continue to question anyway and not give away freedoms too easily. the government are at best just fallible human beings like you or I and while we can hope that "they know best" there is a danger inherent in unquestioningly believing it. As for paying for the card, I am sure we will do that one way or another. If not a separate charge then via our taxes.