Civil liberties...take your pick

[MargeB]

Which civil liberties would you now give up if asked, that you would not have given up last month? Biometric ID cards? Microchip implant? Centralized car tracking? Frequent police stop and search?

[rooftrouser]

ahem - rambling rooftrouser would certainly benefit from some editing if not censorship :-)

Sorry Marge, the short answer is all of those or none. I would accept if I was truly persuaded of their value, motive and safeguards against misuse.

[MargeB]

Thanks for that interesting post.

We have plenty of examples all over the world of what happens when citizens don't take the stance that the british seem prepared to. Just look at China, Saudi Arabia, Singapore. Singapore was the worst I ever saw. Even though they tackled their huge drug and crime problem..at what cost? A nation of chloroformed induhviduals who don't know their lot. No thank you very much.

[Ivankafka]

Isn't "extreme liberal" an oxymoron?

Perhaps. But you can have extremism in all political ideologies. I find them more akin to fascists than true liberals myself.

"The state is set up by the individuals for the individuals, and ultimately the individual and his/her freedoms are the most important thing."

That is one view, but I disagree. I believe the state is set up for the benefit of society as a whole. And that society is more important than one person's rights. But then I lean more to the socialist viewpoint than the liberal one.

As for stating that this government is like the Nazis, that is just utter drivel. In fact it is completely insulting to those who suffered immensely under that regime. Somebody needs to do some serious reading on Nazi Germany I think. However authoritarian some might consider this government they are still a thousand miles away from the Nazis.The millions who lived in fear, the millions tortured and killed, would think Briatin today was Paradise.

[MargeB]

Blair doesn't own gas chambers, but that doesn't mean that the analogy doesn't hold. It was an analogy, not a direct comparison.

Can you please show me 'society'? I have never seen it in my life. Yes, I've seen individuals, but I have never seen this mythical beast called 'society'. It's a pure abstraction, and a perfect BS buzzword gobbled up and spewed out by the mind bending Campbell-Blair machine. 'It's for the good of society.' BS. Show me something that's for the good of individuals, "society" is a shield to hide behind when government wants to do something that pumps up its own control at the expense of the individual, who is of no interest to them when you have an unopposed government like we do.

[Ivankafka]

Yes, but a poor and facile one.

Can you see 'God' or 'culture'? They are abstractions but many believe in them. I see society as an ordered community of individuals. Your Left Liberalism dismisses any notion of society.The parts of the sum are more important than the whole. I disagree. Individual liberty to some extent has always been at odds with the needs of the group or wider community.The individual must surrender part of his freedom in order to gain other benefits that society bestows, such as collective security in times of trouble.

Liberty, democracy and tolerance didn't defeat the fascism and intolerance of Nazi Germany. These nice concepts would have been swept aside and perhaps gone forever. No; brute force and some unpleasant things were done to ensure that these concepts and the rights and privileges that they give us are still here today. Sometimes civil liberties have to be suspended in the short term in order to preserve them in the long term.

[MargeB]

The courts and parliament don't seem to think so to the extent that Tony Blair is prepared to trample on the human rights act.

The analogy is looking better by the day. Tony has perfect ideas, anyone who thinks otherwise is a nincompoop (e.g. his then foreign secretary, Robin Cook, RIP). What do you suggest we do? Use force against Tony? Nae. We stand up to him democratically. The guy is a tyrant. I understand your argument, but it is idealized. Look at the actual way Tony is seeking to force people to do things his way, whether his ideas are illegal (read 'illegal') or not.

We use 'abstractions' all the time, but 'society' is abused. If something does not actually involve making the lives of individuals themselves better, then the concept is being abused. Sure, we can agree on common goals. But we can't sacrifice the individual for some mythical collective beast. Read the history of Communism. Didn't work mate.

[badams]

"Stop and search" - we had that in Northern Ireland for decades!  It was a real pain in the ass at times, especially when idiotic policemen decided to stop every car on a major road hours after some attrocity in the vain hope of finding the culprits.  But it never really did anyone any harm, and on quite a number of occasions when the searches were carried out sensibly, terrorists were caught with bombs or guns in their cars.  How many lives do you need to save for it to be worthwhile?

As for civil liberties, every time I flew into London, I was taken aside and questioned by special branch - obviously I had one of those "terrorist" faces - and I wore a leather bikers jacket - a definite sign I might be a terrorist.  It was so obvious - dozens of people coming off a plane, and you could have put money on who they would pick out to question.  As if terrorists wouldn't have the wit to wear a suit and come up with a good cover story! 

["What is the purpose of your visit Sir?" - "Oh I'm just over to bomb Canary Wharf with my mates." If you had said something like that, either through frustration, or because you had a sick sense of humour, you would have spent the rest of the day in interogation.  Special Branch officers have their sense of humour surgically removed!]

[badams]

And what about ID cards.  Again, we've had one in Northern Ireland for years!  It's called a drivers license, and for as long as I can remember, it has had to have a photo on it. (And that's a long time!)  It's great.  You want to open an account in a video shop? Bring along your drivers license.  You want to vote?  Bring along your drivers license.  It is almost universally accepted as a reliable form of identification.  I do not agree with a national ID card which carries loads of nformation which is only useful to the government, but I think having a unique, reliable, nationally recognised form of identity is an excellent idea.  It would help me - not the government!  Want a new bank account - never mind three or four utility bills - take along your ID card.  Want a job and need to prove you are legally resident in the UK?  Take along your ID card.

To work effectively, ID cards need to be simple and reliable.  All they need to do is prove that the person who's photograph is on the card, is who they say they are.  For the police, and others needing to ensure the card is genuine, there needs to be a database which holds the card ID, and which can verify the persons biometric data.  That's it - nothing more complex, and make it voluntary.  Those with nothing to fear, and who want to make life easier for themselves will get one.  The paranoid others can do without.

(I've never known anyone in Northern Ireland to refuse to apply for a drivers license on the grounds that the government would have a picture of them, and would know where they live!)

[MargeB]

Thanks for those interesting posts badams.

As far as I remember it was the USA and Singapore landing cards that had questions like 'Are you a terrorist' and 'Do you intend to bring illegal drugs into this country.' Overall, there must, somewhere, be some criminal ticking the 'yes' boxes. There ought to be a special crime of total stupidity. If not, give one to those who decide what goes on the cards.

[badams]

MargeB - that's amazing!  I wonder what the official response was to anyone ticking the boxes? !