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Is This Yet Another Story We Should Not Have Been Made Aware Of By The Daily Mail?
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If one's utter disgust at these two worthless pieces of garbage makes some call a person an Islamaphobe, then so be it.
If one's utter disgust at these two worthless pieces of garbage makes some call a person an Islamaphobe, then so be it.
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AOG - "So you think that those Muslim countries who have abysmal human rights issues, the stoning of adulteresses, the killing of homosexuals, the amputation of hands, sentenced to caning for drinking beer, female mutilation, child brides etc, etc. are not extremists?"
No, but then I don' think 'countries' can be extremists because they are inanimate.
The populations of those countries - which I think is what you are referring to - do not agree withe extreme punishments meted out by their minority extremist governments - much in the same way that our population, and that of the USA did not, and continues not to support our military invasion of other countries.
Unlike opressed Muslim countries, we have the advantage of democracy to allow us to change such power structures - but to be unable to speak out against an extreme government without the threat of imprionment or death, is not the same as wholehearterdly supporting it - as you seem to imply.
No, but then I don' think 'countries' can be extremists because they are inanimate.
The populations of those countries - which I think is what you are referring to - do not agree withe extreme punishments meted out by their minority extremist governments - much in the same way that our population, and that of the USA did not, and continues not to support our military invasion of other countries.
Unlike opressed Muslim countries, we have the advantage of democracy to allow us to change such power structures - but to be unable to speak out against an extreme government without the threat of imprionment or death, is not the same as wholehearterdly supporting it - as you seem to imply.
AOG - "Some have chosen to attack other religions in their way of defending Muslims, which is just another form of burying their heads in the sand, or donning their rose tinted specs."
My reference to another religion was not an attack on that religion - merely an attack on the perverse actions of some of its people in positions of power and authority - which is not the bulk of the faith. But neither is the extremist philosophy of some Muslims an example of the faith and its beliefs - and that is the point I was making.
"But we are not just talking about the very small minorities in this country who follow Islam, but the effect which this religion has on the world wide globe, is this something that can be simply equalised to a few Roman Catholic Priest's sexual diversions?"
If some people are burying their heads / wearing rose-tinted specs by making a parallel point, then surely you are guilty of doing the same AOG?
You maximise your point about the imagined efffect of the Muslim faith on the globe, but then minimise the actions of 'a few Catholic priests' sexual diversions'.
I would question the 'effect' of the Muslim faith on the world in the terms you appear to express it - but you do your argument no favours by trying to minimse the actions of paedophile priests.
One person murdered in the name of relgion is one person too many.
One child abused and covered up in the name of religion is also one person too many.
You cannot downsize one attrocity to big up the other - its illogical and does not fit with the facts, even as you see them.
My reference to another religion was not an attack on that religion - merely an attack on the perverse actions of some of its people in positions of power and authority - which is not the bulk of the faith. But neither is the extremist philosophy of some Muslims an example of the faith and its beliefs - and that is the point I was making.
"But we are not just talking about the very small minorities in this country who follow Islam, but the effect which this religion has on the world wide globe, is this something that can be simply equalised to a few Roman Catholic Priest's sexual diversions?"
If some people are burying their heads / wearing rose-tinted specs by making a parallel point, then surely you are guilty of doing the same AOG?
You maximise your point about the imagined efffect of the Muslim faith on the globe, but then minimise the actions of 'a few Catholic priests' sexual diversions'.
I would question the 'effect' of the Muslim faith on the world in the terms you appear to express it - but you do your argument no favours by trying to minimse the actions of paedophile priests.
One person murdered in the name of relgion is one person too many.
One child abused and covered up in the name of religion is also one person too many.
You cannot downsize one attrocity to big up the other - its illogical and does not fit with the facts, even as you see them.
AOG
"Its not a matter of tarring all followers of that religion with the same brush, it is their religion that needs tarring."
No, it's the idiot extremists who are being censured and sentenced, these two are hardly representative of the Muslim faith. My Muslim friends are as horrified as non-Muslims at stupid actions like this. You get idiots and extremists everywhere. They deserve what they get.
"Its not a matter of tarring all followers of that religion with the same brush, it is their religion that needs tarring."
No, it's the idiot extremists who are being censured and sentenced, these two are hardly representative of the Muslim faith. My Muslim friends are as horrified as non-Muslims at stupid actions like this. You get idiots and extremists everywhere. They deserve what they get.
AOG
Why do you feel the need to defend the Daily Mail?
What's it to you?
Do you work for the newspaper?
Are you a major shareholder?
Are you in fact, Paul Dacre?
Actually - you don't need to answer that...
But I am curious as to why you seem to feel the need to defend something that has nothing to do with you.
I personally prefer Andrex to the Daily Mail (functionally) - but why would that matter to anyone?
If someone constantly berated my favourite journal (Empire or Total Film magazine), I wouldn't feel the need to defend it. I'd just carry on reading and enjoying it.
Why do you feel the need to defend the Daily Mail?
What's it to you?
Do you work for the newspaper?
Are you a major shareholder?
Are you in fact, Paul Dacre?
Actually - you don't need to answer that...
But I am curious as to why you seem to feel the need to defend something that has nothing to do with you.
I personally prefer Andrex to the Daily Mail (functionally) - but why would that matter to anyone?
If someone constantly berated my favourite journal (Empire or Total Film magazine), I wouldn't feel the need to defend it. I'd just carry on reading and enjoying it.
The guy who has done this is in essence, a nutter, to put it bluntly. Yes, he happens to be a muslim, just the same as he happens to be a male, have dark skin and be of a certain age - but none of those facts have much bearing on his unpleasant and illegal activities either.
Recent killers in the UK have been both male and female, of a wide variety of ethnic persuasions, various ages, and are of various professed religions. Only yesterday in the news we had unpleasant news of a serial killer whose modus operandi seemed to be stabbing men to death with big knife. She happened to be a young white female. I also don't remember much in that article about her religious beliefs and in particular I don't remember any hate being directed towards Christians or even the particular Christian Church group that had recently been trying to help her out.
Recent killers in the UK have been both male and female, of a wide variety of ethnic persuasions, various ages, and are of various professed religions. Only yesterday in the news we had unpleasant news of a serial killer whose modus operandi seemed to be stabbing men to death with big knife. She happened to be a young white female. I also don't remember much in that article about her religious beliefs and in particular I don't remember any hate being directed towards Christians or even the particular Christian Church group that had recently been trying to help her out.
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andy-hughes
/// The populations of those countries - which I think is what you are referring to - do not agree withe extreme punishments meted out by their minority extremist governments - much in the same way that our population, and that of the USA did not, and continues not to support our military invasion of other countries. ///
Oh so that is why they all congregate to witness these punishments being carried out do you Andy, and is that why there are so many civil wars taking place because they all want to be peaceful non harming Muslims?
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And I think that you are wrong to assume that all our population did not support our military involvement in other countries.
Did you witness a huge public outcry with demonstrations, perhaps riots or even a civil war taking place? But we did see many more welcoming our troops back from these involvements.
/// The populations of those countries - which I think is what you are referring to - do not agree withe extreme punishments meted out by their minority extremist governments - much in the same way that our population, and that of the USA did not, and continues not to support our military invasion of other countries. ///
Oh so that is why they all congregate to witness these punishments being carried out do you Andy, and is that why there are so many civil wars taking place because they all want to be peaceful non harming Muslims?
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And I think that you are wrong to assume that all our population did not support our military involvement in other countries.
Did you witness a huge public outcry with demonstrations, perhaps riots or even a civil war taking place? But we did see many more welcoming our troops back from these involvements.
AOG - "/// The populations of those countries - which I think is what you are referring to - do not agree withe extreme punishments meted out by their minority extremist governments - much in the same way that our population, and that of the USA did not, and continues not to support our military invasion of other countries. ///
Oh so that is why they all congregate to witness these punishments being carried out do you Andy, and is that why there are so many civil wars taking place because they all want to be peaceful non harming Muslims?"
It is unlike you to clutch at straws like this - and use patently unhelpful scenarios to back your position.
If they 'all' congregated to watch punishments, then the entire nation would surely grind to a halt! But no, a few gather for a variety of reasons - to gawp, to enjoy, to be horrified, because they happen to be there.
In fact, i could generate precisely the same reaction if I stepped out onto my high street and started electrocuting kittens - but i would not take that as a ringing national endoresement of my behaviour!
" ...and is that why there are so many civil wars taking place because they all want to be peaceful non harming Muslims?"
Civil wars may carry the guise of religion - except I don't believe that those in Muslim countries do. You know as well as I do, that wars are about power - the use and expansion of power - nothing else but.
You can dress up a reason for war any way you want - protection, religion, hatred ... the list goes on, but they come back to power, that is what all wars are ever about.
As far as the radical Muslim backlash we receive here - we have only our leaders to blame (not, I hasten to add, the popluation who did not support their military invasions) - invading a country in an effort to enforce democracy (we seem to have dropped the notion of WOMD's now ...) tends to focus the hatred of the extreme few on the invaders, who have given them a cause to fight for.
"And I think that you are wrong to assume that all our population did not support our military involvement in other countries.
Did you witness a huge public outcry with demonstrations, perhaps riots or even a civil war taking place? But we did see many more welcoming our troops back from these involvements."
Er yes, I did! Were you on holiday when the demos took place???
I would wholeheartedly join in the welcome of the troops back from these 'involvements' (what a lovely sanitised word to use!) - but that is because I would welcome the return of anyone from any nation who has returned from war in one piece.
But that is a very long way from supporting their action in going to war in the first place - which I didn't, and don't.
Being a humanitarian and a pacifist is possible without jingoistic flag waving for 'our boys and girls'.
Oh so that is why they all congregate to witness these punishments being carried out do you Andy, and is that why there are so many civil wars taking place because they all want to be peaceful non harming Muslims?"
It is unlike you to clutch at straws like this - and use patently unhelpful scenarios to back your position.
If they 'all' congregated to watch punishments, then the entire nation would surely grind to a halt! But no, a few gather for a variety of reasons - to gawp, to enjoy, to be horrified, because they happen to be there.
In fact, i could generate precisely the same reaction if I stepped out onto my high street and started electrocuting kittens - but i would not take that as a ringing national endoresement of my behaviour!
" ...and is that why there are so many civil wars taking place because they all want to be peaceful non harming Muslims?"
Civil wars may carry the guise of religion - except I don't believe that those in Muslim countries do. You know as well as I do, that wars are about power - the use and expansion of power - nothing else but.
You can dress up a reason for war any way you want - protection, religion, hatred ... the list goes on, but they come back to power, that is what all wars are ever about.
As far as the radical Muslim backlash we receive here - we have only our leaders to blame (not, I hasten to add, the popluation who did not support their military invasions) - invading a country in an effort to enforce democracy (we seem to have dropped the notion of WOMD's now ...) tends to focus the hatred of the extreme few on the invaders, who have given them a cause to fight for.
"And I think that you are wrong to assume that all our population did not support our military involvement in other countries.
Did you witness a huge public outcry with demonstrations, perhaps riots or even a civil war taking place? But we did see many more welcoming our troops back from these involvements."
Er yes, I did! Were you on holiday when the demos took place???
I would wholeheartedly join in the welcome of the troops back from these 'involvements' (what a lovely sanitised word to use!) - but that is because I would welcome the return of anyone from any nation who has returned from war in one piece.
But that is a very long way from supporting their action in going to war in the first place - which I didn't, and don't.
Being a humanitarian and a pacifist is possible without jingoistic flag waving for 'our boys and girls'.
andy-hughes
/// You maximise your point about the imagined efffect of the Muslim faith on the globe, but then minimise the actions of 'a few Catholic priests' sexual diversions'. ///
You are taking my remarks out of context, I was in no way minimise the actions of 'a few Catholic priests' sexual diversions' I was simply comparing them to world wide Muslim issues.
Obviously if I compared the few Muslims that we have in this country, with the rest of the World's then the former is bound to be in the minority.
But then as is the usual case other religion's wrong doings, and our own countries wrong doings, are trawled out in the usual attempt to somehow equalise the original argument.
/// You maximise your point about the imagined efffect of the Muslim faith on the globe, but then minimise the actions of 'a few Catholic priests' sexual diversions'. ///
You are taking my remarks out of context, I was in no way minimise the actions of 'a few Catholic priests' sexual diversions' I was simply comparing them to world wide Muslim issues.
Obviously if I compared the few Muslims that we have in this country, with the rest of the World's then the former is bound to be in the minority.
But then as is the usual case other religion's wrong doings, and our own countries wrong doings, are trawled out in the usual attempt to somehow equalise the original argument.
andy-hughes
/// But that is a very long way from supporting their action in going to war in the first place - which I didn't, and don't. ///
/// Being a humanitarian and a pacifist is possible without jingoistic flag waving for 'our boys and girls'.///
And that is your right and no one is going to punish you for your beliefs, not in this country at least, but please Andy do not include everyone else in your personal sentiments.
/// But that is a very long way from supporting their action in going to war in the first place - which I didn't, and don't. ///
/// Being a humanitarian and a pacifist is possible without jingoistic flag waving for 'our boys and girls'.///
And that is your right and no one is going to punish you for your beliefs, not in this country at least, but please Andy do not include everyone else in your personal sentiments.
AOG - "/// But that is a very long way from supporting their action in going to war in the first place - which I didn't, and don't. ///
/// Being a humanitarian and a pacifist is possible without jingoistic flag waving for 'our boys and girls'.///
And that is your right and no one is going to punish you for your beliefs, not in this country at least, but please Andy do not include everyone else in your personal sentiments."
My sentiments, along with my thoughts, opinions, beliefs, stands, positions, and general baseline have always been my own, I would never presume to speak for anyone else.
I thought that so obvious as to not need pointing out, but on the basis that you do not see it, I am happy to set the record straight.
/// Being a humanitarian and a pacifist is possible without jingoistic flag waving for 'our boys and girls'.///
And that is your right and no one is going to punish you for your beliefs, not in this country at least, but please Andy do not include everyone else in your personal sentiments."
My sentiments, along with my thoughts, opinions, beliefs, stands, positions, and general baseline have always been my own, I would never presume to speak for anyone else.
I thought that so obvious as to not need pointing out, but on the basis that you do not see it, I am happy to set the record straight.
Andy Hughes
//Again, I would suggest you apply the percentages rules to paedophile priests and see if Catholicism should be under a similar spotlight.//
I agree entirely. All religions should be under the spotlight as far as I'm concerned.
Whilst there is "magical thinking" in the world we will never reach our full potential as a race. Imagine what we would have been capable of by now if we hadn't been held back bt thousands of years of ancient retarded dogma.
//Again, I would suggest you apply the percentages rules to paedophile priests and see if Catholicism should be under a similar spotlight.//
I agree entirely. All religions should be under the spotlight as far as I'm concerned.
Whilst there is "magical thinking" in the world we will never reach our full potential as a race. Imagine what we would have been capable of by now if we hadn't been held back bt thousands of years of ancient retarded dogma.
Andy-Hughes, //The populations of those countries - which I think is what you are referring to - do not agree withe extreme punishments meted out by their minority extremist governments//
I don’t know where you get your information from but it’s erroneous. You make the same mistake that all westerners who defend fundamentalist Islam make – you assume the faithful possess a similar mind-set to your own, but they don’t. For them Islam is beyond criticism – and that includes its laws – which is why thousands of the inhabitants of the countries you’re referring to flood the streets calling for the slaughter of authors and cartoonists. They are more than happy to see heads fall.
I don’t know where you get your information from but it’s erroneous. You make the same mistake that all westerners who defend fundamentalist Islam make – you assume the faithful possess a similar mind-set to your own, but they don’t. For them Islam is beyond criticism – and that includes its laws – which is why thousands of the inhabitants of the countries you’re referring to flood the streets calling for the slaughter of authors and cartoonists. They are more than happy to see heads fall.
naomi - "...all westerners who defend fundamentalist Islam make ..."
At no point in any post on any thread have I ever defended fundamentalist Islam.
I defend the faith as i believe it is widely practised - as a peaceful religion - but in no way have I or would I condone the extreme actions of fundamentalists.
By all means take issue with anything I say, but please don't put words in my mouth.
At no point in any post on any thread have I ever defended fundamentalist Islam.
I defend the faith as i believe it is widely practised - as a peaceful religion - but in no way have I or would I condone the extreme actions of fundamentalists.
By all means take issue with anything I say, but please don't put words in my mouth.
yes it is, who could forget a name like Royal Barnes, which is her husband
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quite frankly this country has turned into a joke as regards this so called tolerance, you should have a look at the capital, full of women who wear the burkha, and many veiled. Is it their choice, if so why, i was in and around Stratford the other day and quite frankly its appalling, never in my life would i expect women of any hue, race, religion to look this way, i am utterly dismayed by it,
Andy-Hughes, I haven’t put words into your mouth. You're confusing fundamentalist Islam with radical Islam. Fundamentalism means strict adherence to the literal interpretation of scripture and to basic principles.
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