Should 'she' Be Allowed To Enter?

[joeluke]

Boy living as a girl is finalist in beauty competition

Can any male just put on a dress, call themselves a female and instantly get female rights?

Which public toilets/changing rooms would 'she' use? Surely not the male ones???

...and surely there are 'beauty' competitions for transgenders 'she' could enter

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2563660/Transgender-girl-17-lived-boy-year-ago-receives-death-threats-Miss-England-bid.html

[Old_Geezer]

It is a strange world. When folk get convinced and actually argue there is such a thing as a sex change operation, then I guess all bets are off and anything goes. Otherwise one has problems agreeing where to draw the line. I figure if the organisers had it as ok in the rules, then it's fine. Their competition, their rules.

[Prudie]

On top of that why worry, she's not got the face to win anyway. And presumably she ticked all entry requirements.

[2sp_]

She is a woman born into the wrong body. Get over it.

[pixie373]

I agree, og. You can be whatever gender you are, your sex will never change.

[Sqad]

I can't see the problem here............

DNA all applicants for the Miss England contests.

If they have XY chromosomes...they are male..........not admissible.
If they are XX chromosome......they are female......admissable.

[2sp_]

Sqad, what about those born with an extra Y or X?

Which pigeon hole should we bung them in?

[pixie373]

Intersex

[jim360]

Except of course that's not the rule that the Miss England contest applies. There are two scenarios in which there is no problem here: either you accept that they make their own rules, or you accept that gender is about more than biology. In either case, no-one should have any objection to this -- in both cases, it's because it's none of your business.

[Sqad]

sp...tough luck...they cannot be admitted.

The physical abnormalities may be such, that a "beauty" competition would be out of the question.

[pixie373]

There's a difference between gender and sex, jim. Which are you referring to?

[jim360]

The gender associated with how one thinks about oneself.

[joeluke]

Too many on this thread referring to this boy as 'she'

He's a boy wearing lipstick and a dress

Fact

[sherrardk]

I have no problem with men living as women, women living as men etc (apparently where we live is awash with men who dress as women) but I would hate to see the state of the 300 others that Jordan has so far beaten.

[pixie373]

Well joeluke. It looks as though i could have gone to that working men's club, after all. I should have just painted on a beard and said i thought of myself as male. They would have accepted that, I'm sure.

[anneasquith]

he is a male dressing as a female, until he gets his surgery,

[pixie373]

...and then he'll be a male after cosmetic surgery, dressing as a woman.

[jim360]

The "fact" is that it's not up to you to make that determination, Joe. It is up, first and foremost, to Jordan, and second, to those involved in the legal aspects of changing the way your gender is recorded. No-one else's opinion matters in the slightest.

To call Jordan a "man dressed as a woman" is falsely making her the same as those men who do dress as women for fun but wouldn't want to, or at least don't, live as women on top of that. They are related, but there are also huge differences, and they shouldn't be lightly brushed aside. This is a permanent life choice, or at least intended currently as such, and is also very public too, which is another thing that isn't in common with a large number of men who might dress up as women.

[pixie373]

What exactly do you mean "living as a woman" , other than clothes?

[jim360]

Perhaps the simplest answer is that someone is living as a woman if they are out presenting as a woman in public. Thus, someone is not living as a woman (thought they might feel like one) if all of the dressing and makeup and so on goes on in private, or away from the public eye. Jordan is out, identifying in public as a woman, in everything she does.

* * * * * * *

For the record, the official rules for Miss England eligibility are that:

"each contestant... shall be a person... who usually uses the prefix Miss (or equivalent) before their name." That is all that the T&Cs have to say about the matter. The dots merely represent other rules rather than anything else on the matter of gender, which can be confirmed at the official website www.missengland.info