Crosswords1 min ago
Judy Finnigan
When I saw the headlines this morning I had a sharp intake of breath - surely a woman wouldn't 'excuse' rape?
However, having now seen a transcript, what she actually said was (lifted from the BBC website);
"If he does go back, he will have to brave an awful lot of comments," said Finnigan during her debut appearance on the lunchtime programme.
"But, having said that, he has served his time, he's served two years.
"The rape - and I am not, please, by any means minimising any kind of rape - but the rape was not violent, he didn't cause any bodily harm to the person.
"It was unpleasant, in a hotel room I believe, and she [the victim] had far too much to drink.
"That is reprehensible but he has been convicted and he has served his time."
Ultimately she's right, isn't she?
As unpleasant as this man is, he has served his time, and therefore shouldn't he be allowed to continue to pursure his chosen career?
However, having now seen a transcript, what she actually said was (lifted from the BBC website);
"If he does go back, he will have to brave an awful lot of comments," said Finnigan during her debut appearance on the lunchtime programme.
"But, having said that, he has served his time, he's served two years.
"The rape - and I am not, please, by any means minimising any kind of rape - but the rape was not violent, he didn't cause any bodily harm to the person.
"It was unpleasant, in a hotel room I believe, and she [the victim] had far too much to drink.
"That is reprehensible but he has been convicted and he has served his time."
Ultimately she's right, isn't she?
As unpleasant as this man is, he has served his time, and therefore shouldn't he be allowed to continue to pursure his chosen career?
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yes. as a victim of a violent rape where i was beaten to a pulp (i was 15 and he was 22 and a friend of my older brother) and i was stone cold sober (and led him on in no way whatsoever - i made the mistake of walking home alone at 8pm on a summer's day when it was still light), i feel that judy finnigan's comments are right and justifiably so. the victim spent the evening drinking in his company and then went back to a hotel room with him. either she needs to stop getting so drunk she doesn't know what she is doing, or she shouldn't be chasing footballers in order to be a wag. either way, i feel that the woman probably used him as a meal ticket and didn't like the situation she found herself in; and/or people like footballers need to realise they can't use vulnerable people in this way and treat women like crap. but either way......there are sectors of women who go out dressed as tarty as can be, sleep around and try to 'catch' someone famous. i live in a premiership footballer city and see them out and about all the time and it makes me want to vomit. not out of jealousy, because i couldn't give a toss who footballer's may think they are, but out f sheer despair of the stupidity of some women and how bad they make the rest of us look. my rape scarred me for life - physically and mentally. can she remember hers fully? i doubt it.
I am really sorry to read of your traumatic experience.
With regard to your observation -
"... the victim spent the evening drinking in his company and then went back to a hotel room with him. either she needs to stop getting so drunk she doesn't know what she is doing, or she shouldn't be chasing footballers in order to be a wag."
I can only repeat what I have said earlier - stupid behaviour is not a crime, or an excuse for a crime.
Rape is a crime.
With regard to your observation -
"... the victim spent the evening drinking in his company and then went back to a hotel room with him. either she needs to stop getting so drunk she doesn't know what she is doing, or she shouldn't be chasing footballers in order to be a wag."
I can only repeat what I have said earlier - stupid behaviour is not a crime, or an excuse for a crime.
Rape is a crime.
it is a crime....but the lines here are very blurred. she had sex with two people after spending the evening drinking with them and then went back to the hotel room. imho.....very, very different to my experience, where the lines are very clear. and she was stupid.....but why did only one man get found guilty. the whole thing stinks and i support ched evans - an i don't like football or live in sheffield, for that matter. i think he got very burnt by a wannabe.
lcg - "it is a crime....but the lines here are very blurred. she had sex with two people after spending the evening drinking with them and then went back to the hotel room. imho.....very, very different to my experience, where the lines are very clear. and she was stupid.....but why did only one man get found guilty. the whole thing stinks and i support ched evans - an i don't like football or live in sheffield, for that matter. i think he got very burnt by a wannabe."
Your point is interesting, given your experience.
As you will see if you trawl back through the entire debate, I do not believe that rape is mitigated by circumstances, and that includes a woman putting herself ina situation like this one.
If a woman enters a hotel room with two men, and is too drunk to refuse intercourse, and a man has intercourse with her semi / unconcious form, then that is rape, and that is what this man was convicted of.
Please read the link posted a few posts ago which relates the entire judgement, and the reasoning behind it.
Your point is interesting, given your experience.
As you will see if you trawl back through the entire debate, I do not believe that rape is mitigated by circumstances, and that includes a woman putting herself ina situation like this one.
If a woman enters a hotel room with two men, and is too drunk to refuse intercourse, and a man has intercourse with her semi / unconcious form, then that is rape, and that is what this man was convicted of.
Please read the link posted a few posts ago which relates the entire judgement, and the reasoning behind it.
Lcg, Andy is right, it is necessary really to read the full judgment. Although people, like me, initially thought that it is not really possible for only one Defendant to be acquitted, it is and was the case.
There have been some ill considered views today in respect of the victim's conduct and I am not going to go over old ground as Andy has repeatedly striven to explain with a huge degree of patience.
Evans will return to football Ive little doubt and there will be clubs who will be interested but not Sheff Utd.
There have been some ill considered views today in respect of the victim's conduct and I am not going to go over old ground as Andy has repeatedly striven to explain with a huge degree of patience.
Evans will return to football Ive little doubt and there will be clubs who will be interested but not Sheff Utd.
Mr Evans and Port Vale defender Clayton McDonald, both 23, deny rape at a Premier Inn near Rhyl, Denbighshire.
Both admit having sex on 30 May 2011 but the prosecution say the woman, 19 at the time, was too drunk to consent.
Mr Evans told Caernarfon Crown Court the woman had not been very drunk and had been "in control". The trial is continuing.
Prosecutor John Philpotts questioned the footballer, stating: "She was simply a girl that you and your friend... you just used her for your own gratification."
But Mr Evans replied: "No, that's not right."
Asked about the condition the woman was in during their encounter, Mr Evans said she had been "in control".
"She was not very drunk. She had had a drink but she was not very drunk," he said. Earlier in evidence, the court heard that Mr Evans, whose mother lives in Rhyl, had invited Mr McDonald and others for a bank holiday night out in the seaside town on 29 May.
Because there was not enough space at Mr Evans' mother's house, Mr Evans had booked Mr McDonald into the hotel.
The court heard that Mr McDonald met the woman and took her back to the room, sending a text to Mr Evans stating he had "got a bird".
During his evidence, Mr Evans told the court he wanted to go back to the room and tell Mr McDonald that one of their friends had been arrested and to see if he knew the girl, as he was a "local lad".
He admitted "deceiving" the receptionist to get the key card to the room and then letting himself in and seeing Mr McDonald having sex with the girl.
He said they realised he was there when the door "made a clunking noise" behind him.
Mr Evans told the court he watched them having sex for about "10/20 seconds" and then Mr McDonald "asked" if his friend could "get involved".
'Giggling'
"Then she looked at me and said yes," Mr Evans said.
He then said he carried on watching "for a minute or two" before Mr McDonald got up to close the bedroom curtains, as there was "giggling" coming from the window, where Mr Evans' brother and a friend were trying to watch from.
Mr Evans said that when Mr McDonald got up the girl asked him to perform a sex act on her, which he did.
He explained to the court that the girl encouraged him while they had sex, which continued until Mr McDonald left the room.
Mr Evans told the court that when he stopped having sex with the girl and started to get dressed the girl "huffed... she pulled the quilt over herself."
Mr Philpotts asked Mr Evans if he and Mr McDonald "forced that young lady" into having sex.
He replied: "No."
Asked if she was conscious, Mr Evans replied: "Yes."
Girlfriend
Mr Evans said he left the hotel room, for which he had paid £99, and walked home because the room had not been booked for him.
The prosecutor quizzed Mr Evans on why he had left through an emergency exit.
"You left through that exit because you knew what you had done," said Mr Philpotts. "No," replied the footballer.
"And you didn't want to be seen going through reception," said the prosecutor. "No," Mr Evans said again.
Mr Philpotts asked: "What was the hurry to leave?"
Mr Evans replied: "Because I didn't want to be in the room in case my girlfriend rang me."
He said it was "never his intention" to go and "get a girl" that night, and that he did not recognise her from a bar earlier in the night when she was seen to fall over.
He said he could not remember making a call to Mr McDonald after receiving his text about him "getting a bird" and could not remember the taxi journey to the hotel - a taxi he shared with his brother and a friend.
Mr Evans said the first he heard about the accusations was a text message from his mother on the following Tuesday which he received while seeing a physiotherapist in Sheffield.
He said the text talked about the police "interrogating his little brother" about what had happened at the Premier
Both admit having sex on 30 May 2011 but the prosecution say the woman, 19 at the time, was too drunk to consent.
Mr Evans told Caernarfon Crown Court the woman had not been very drunk and had been "in control". The trial is continuing.
Prosecutor John Philpotts questioned the footballer, stating: "She was simply a girl that you and your friend... you just used her for your own gratification."
But Mr Evans replied: "No, that's not right."
Asked about the condition the woman was in during their encounter, Mr Evans said she had been "in control".
"She was not very drunk. She had had a drink but she was not very drunk," he said. Earlier in evidence, the court heard that Mr Evans, whose mother lives in Rhyl, had invited Mr McDonald and others for a bank holiday night out in the seaside town on 29 May.
Because there was not enough space at Mr Evans' mother's house, Mr Evans had booked Mr McDonald into the hotel.
The court heard that Mr McDonald met the woman and took her back to the room, sending a text to Mr Evans stating he had "got a bird".
During his evidence, Mr Evans told the court he wanted to go back to the room and tell Mr McDonald that one of their friends had been arrested and to see if he knew the girl, as he was a "local lad".
He admitted "deceiving" the receptionist to get the key card to the room and then letting himself in and seeing Mr McDonald having sex with the girl.
He said they realised he was there when the door "made a clunking noise" behind him.
Mr Evans told the court he watched them having sex for about "10/20 seconds" and then Mr McDonald "asked" if his friend could "get involved".
'Giggling'
"Then she looked at me and said yes," Mr Evans said.
He then said he carried on watching "for a minute or two" before Mr McDonald got up to close the bedroom curtains, as there was "giggling" coming from the window, where Mr Evans' brother and a friend were trying to watch from.
Mr Evans said that when Mr McDonald got up the girl asked him to perform a sex act on her, which he did.
He explained to the court that the girl encouraged him while they had sex, which continued until Mr McDonald left the room.
Mr Evans told the court that when he stopped having sex with the girl and started to get dressed the girl "huffed... she pulled the quilt over herself."
Mr Philpotts asked Mr Evans if he and Mr McDonald "forced that young lady" into having sex.
He replied: "No."
Asked if she was conscious, Mr Evans replied: "Yes."
Girlfriend
Mr Evans said he left the hotel room, for which he had paid £99, and walked home because the room had not been booked for him.
The prosecutor quizzed Mr Evans on why he had left through an emergency exit.
"You left through that exit because you knew what you had done," said Mr Philpotts. "No," replied the footballer.
"And you didn't want to be seen going through reception," said the prosecutor. "No," Mr Evans said again.
Mr Philpotts asked: "What was the hurry to leave?"
Mr Evans replied: "Because I didn't want to be in the room in case my girlfriend rang me."
He said it was "never his intention" to go and "get a girl" that night, and that he did not recognise her from a bar earlier in the night when she was seen to fall over.
He said he could not remember making a call to Mr McDonald after receiving his text about him "getting a bird" and could not remember the taxi journey to the hotel - a taxi he shared with his brother and a friend.
Mr Evans said the first he heard about the accusations was a text message from his mother on the following Tuesday which he received while seeing a physiotherapist in Sheffield.
He said the text talked about the police "interrogating his little brother" about what had happened at the Premier
lcg - you say 'I rest my case' but all you have done is copy and paste transcripts largely detailing Evans' testimony which was not accepted by the jury.
You say you believe he was stitched up by a wannabe but you don't know the victim or her motives. You use phrases like 'meal ticket' and WAG but that is your speculation not fact.
I would urge you to read the link I posted earlier and look at the issue of consent again.
You say you believe he was stitched up by a wannabe but you don't know the victim or her motives. You use phrases like 'meal ticket' and WAG but that is your speculation not fact.
I would urge you to read the link I posted earlier and look at the issue of consent again.
and my point is how could she be conscious enough to consent to one bloke hanging but the back of her, but not another? the jury must live with deciding that one......i can't think of one instance where i would have trouble realising that a) there were two men in the room, or b) that the first had dismounted and somebody else clambered in the bed and joined in. the jury may have discounted it, but my opinion stands. i have seen girls and grown women showing footballers their tits in public areas of bars etc. in the vain hope that they will think that they are wife material and they never have to work again in their lives. a sad, but true reality of footballers going out on the town. and.....they are stupid enough to pick them up and risk all sorts of allegations. the stupidity goes both ways, i'm afraid. i blame BOTH the girl and ched evans, but he is the one paying for it and i think that is unfair. and nowt you say will change my mind. lots of girls will go out, get very *** and not necessarily end up alleging rape.....i just wondered why in this case. and i can think of one very large reason.
lcg, I am not posting to make you change your mind I am merely trying to understand some of your terminology and rationale.
There may have been 'stupidity' but rape is another thing altogether. Andy has made this point earlier.
I don't doubt that you have seen for yourself examples of women behaving dubiously but we cannot tar this victim with the same brush. Yes, she was intoxicated but what followed was unacceptable by the jury. Evans should have known better and his friend, who luckily for him, was believed in court.
There may have been 'stupidity' but rape is another thing altogether. Andy has made this point earlier.
I don't doubt that you have seen for yourself examples of women behaving dubiously but we cannot tar this victim with the same brush. Yes, she was intoxicated but what followed was unacceptable by the jury. Evans should have known better and his friend, who luckily for him, was believed in court.
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