Are The Dutch Wrong To Have A Traditional Festive Character Called Black Pete?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2836013/Police-arrest-60-protesters-Dutch-Christmas-festival-disturbances-traditional-Black-Pete-clowns-blacked-faces.html

Would it be more acceptable for them to recruit only black people to play his part?

Or why don't the black population join in the fun and whiten their faces? I am sure the whites wouldn't take offence.

[DTCwordfan]

Frognog and Slappy have this one nailed. I summarise with, "I don't think it's done with anything other than seasonal fun in mind."

Christ, Oliver Twist will be slammed because there were folk up chimneys covered in soot.

Get real - this is a Dutch matter, not ours. Oh and, by the way, it's fun to particpate in as one of the crowd - with young ones next to you.

[Slapshot]

But still Sp we hear Scots being referred to as Jocks or sweaties etc etc .... Racism is a state of mind, most people are not racist but some are if someone instantly thinks everything is racist then maybe a grip on reality is lacking

[-Talbot-]

So once again we have to accept double standards?
Australian of Pakistani heritage or Pakistani of Australiand heritage.
It is ok to refer to her as an Aussie but not a lackie?

I thought treating everyone as the same was a good thing?

[Svejk]

Gay protestors(at least in those days) weren't demanding an end to heterosexual relationships.

[sp1814]

whiskeryron

I understand your point of view, but as a black child in the 70s seeing white people dressed as minstrels and dancing about like jiggaboos - I did not feel flattered in any way.

I know millions of people watched and loved the 'Black and White Minstrel Show', and this includes many of my mum's generation.

However, for practically all of the black kids I knew growing up in the 70s, it was just wrong.

Perhaps it's a generational thing.

[-Talbot-]

Racism is a state of mind


Exactly, slapshot. And imo people like mikey who wants to label people racists at every oppertunity do not help at all.

[-Talbot-]

opportunity (it's dark and I have been told I can't have the light on)


:0/

[sp1814]

Slapshot

You may hear of Scots being referred to as jocks or whatever, and you should remember that many Scottish people hate the English.

Also, just because one nickname is accepted by one group, doesn't make all nicknames acceptable to all groups.

Would you refer to a black colleague as a 'N'?

If not, why not?

It's because you know that certain words are socially unacceptable.

[sp1814]

-Talbot-

The 'P' word has racist overtones I'm afraid.

It's just the way things are.

Not all words have the same weight. Aussie is not used by English people as an insult, but unfortunately the P word has a lot of baggage.

I agree that it should not have this baggage, but we would have to be incredibly stupid not to recognise that it does.

[FrogNog]

sp you misread me.
I believe firmly in the right to protest. I will defend it all the way and I don't like the way things are going with kettling and other obstacles.
Most of the time I am firmly on your side in any debate. This time I think you are moving the posts a little.
The op asked if the Dutch majority are wrong to have this festival.
I can see that it's distasteful, I can see how it could offend and I can see why some would not want it.
On the other hand, I can see that black clowns in Holland are as much a tradition as pasty white clowns are in England.
This is not a racism issue to me. The connection to the black moor is as lost as the Coca Cola Father Christmas connection is lost.
Please don't misinterpret me. I abhor any form of racism.

[-Talbot-]

You never addressed my earlier posts, sp


Should I as a white man be offended by the ritual of the Abakwetha circumcision ritual were the black people paint themselves white?

[Slapshot]

yeah you're exactly correct of course....

If you I labelled someone as racist every time I'd been called a jock we'd be in trouble, likewise referring to some of my southern shandy drinking brethren as Sassanachs is generally a term of endearment.

Simply Sp this garbage of labelling everything as racist or offensive really bugs me, sometimes people need to grow a pair look beyond the "cool, chic "right On" theories" and see reality....... and if you can't get your knickers out of a twist about it... just assess your audience..if you think someone might take the huff, then say nowt!!

[vetuste_ennemi]

I saw newly circumcised guys covered in white mud when I was driving through Transkei forty years ago, Talbot. . Is it the same (Xhosa) ritual?

[whiskeryron]

sp1814, thank you for your very interesting answer. Believe me when I say I have no racial thoughts in my head at all & state quite categorically I do honestly believe that we are all created equally, I hate this lot that is going on in the U.S where black people are still being treated as 2nd class citizens. I don.t where you live but I have the strangest feeling that you & I could be real mates.

[sp1814]

FrogNog

Actually, you make a good point.

This is going to be difficult for me to explain, but I will try - I personally don't think the character of Black Pete should continue, but at the same time, if I were Dutch, I don't think I would protest against the character.

It's very difficult to put myself into the shoes of black Dutch people, because we don't have any comparable characters here.

I think that if I were on an night out with friends, and a white person who was blacked up came anywhere near me, or tried to engage me in conversation, I would probably tell them to **** off.

[sp1814]

-Talbot-

Should you as a white man be offended by the ritual of the Abakwetha circumcision ritual were the black people paint themselves white?

Only if you are the kind of person who looks up something in Google to make a point, because he realises that off the top of his head, he cannot think of any equivalent of Black Pete.

But seriously - it's down to you as to what you do and do not find offensive. You don't need to get confirmation from me nor anyone else.

[vetuste_ennemi]

I've answered my own question, Talbot. There is an irony in the reason for choosing WHITE clay, isn't there?

[FrogNog]

Honestly sp, I truly believe that if any backed up Dutchman came near you on any other night of the year, you would be entitled to have the same reaction.
On this night, I think the meaning is different.

[FrogNog]

*blacked

[Slapshot]

That Talbot answer Sp... He needs no confimation Sp but the millions of Dutch NOT protesting about Zwarte Piet are wrong and by the jist of this thread you are saying they perpetuate a racist MYTH about the Sinterklaasavond festivals.......Isn't that a touch hypocritical of you....