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[murraymints]

2 arrested on suspician of murder re police officer knocked down in Merseyside !

[Peter Pedant]

DB - you dont get arrested by mistake
it is usually a positive act

and the reason why so many of post that the system doesnt work very well is not because of the Daily Mail reportage but in our experience it hasnt worked very well for ourselves or a close acquaintance

[andy-hughes]

Peter Pedant - //// Andy...hmmmm.....is there much doubt //
yup there sure is - staring you in the face

arrest on suspicion is NOT the guilt finding point
the jury coming out and saying 'guilty' is//

I think if you re-read my post, you'll find that that is exactly what I said.

[andy-hughes]

divebuddy - //yup, Nobody should ever be arrested for anything. But if, by some oversight they are, and heaven forbid charged with something; they should promptly be acquitted. And then given compo. //

It's easy to mock a judicial system which is not fool proof, but given the alternatives of vigilantes roaming the countryside shooting on sight, I'll be happy to stick with it until something better comes around.

[Peter Pedant]

// I think if you re-read my post, you'll find that that is exactly what I said. //

yes indeedy andy
it was addressed to MM and anyone else who feels that if you are arrested for something then you "must" have done it .....

[ I still feel very raw over the framed Irish Bombers - probably because at the time so many of my acquaintances really DID think they had done it. Altho by the time the Guildford four went down, I was pretty sure they hadnt done it - ( The Oz barman who gave one an alibi, getting possed in a bar in Kilburn, was deported for assisting a terrorist without any real assessment of what he was saying might be true )]

[andy-hughes]

divebuddy - //andy,
1. you should read PPs post again - he was quoting MM, not you. //

You are quite right - apologies PP.

[fraser]

If they are guilty pity we haven't got the death penalty anymore

[Jackdaw33]

The case of DPP v Smith (1960) has similar facts to this, a policeman trying to stop a car and later dying from his injuries. He was originally found guilty of murder and sentenced to death. The Court of Appeal decided that it was manslaughter and Smith was removed from the death cell. The House of Lords overturned the Appeal Court and reinstated the conviction of murder and the death penalty, though Smith was not hanged because of the circumstances of his case.

[andy-hughes]

fraser - //If they are guilty pity we haven't got the death penalty anymore //

Is that statement based on the circumstances here, or do you believe that anyone convicted of murder should be executed?

[sandyRoe]

Will the passenger be held as culpable as the driver? There's a charge here, where joyriding is a scourge, of knowingly allowing yourself to be carried in a stolen vehicle.

[Old_Geezer]

How is a policeman expecting to stop a speeding fleeing car ? Don't they stay out of the way and report the sighting such that other cars can converge ? Unsure I understand this story.

[Cloverjo]

We don't know what happened yet. The car may have got out of control and hit the policeman without the driver's intention. The passenger may have had nothing to do with it, even if it was intentional by the driver.
I'm with the "innocent until proved guilty" camp. Let's see what happens in court before we condemn people.

[Old_Geezer]

Ah just had a look at the article, seems they were using a tyre-puncturing "stinger" device and not expecting the car to try to avoid it. Nasty. Maybe something to consider regarding how these things are used ?

[sandyRoe]

I think the police had already placed a device which punctures the tyres of the car across the road and the criminals had swerved to try and avoid that.

[EDDIE51]

My view is that they will have to go for manslaughter. I can see a possibility of a jury failing to agree that it was murder, rather than hitting the officer while trying to avoid the 'stinger' he was trying to deploy.
If they went for murder and failed to convince the jury they would walk free.

[andy-hughes]

Old_Geezer - //How is a policeman expecting to stop a speeding fleeing car ? Don't they stay out of the way and report the sighting such that other cars can converge ? Unsure I understand this story. //

As I understand it, the officers were deploying a 'stinger' which is an extendable carpet of hollow spikes which puncture the tires of the fleeing vehicle, bringing it safely to a stop.

Deployment means the officer standing right by the roadside, or in this case, on a central reservation. On this occasion, the driver aimed his car directly at the officers, one got out of the way, one was hit and died of his injuries.

Because the driver deliberately aimed his vehicle at the officers, the charge will be murder when the case comes to court.

[Old_Geezer]

Thanks for the explanation.

[EDDIE51]

^^ As I say how do you PROVE it was a deliberate intention to kill the officer rather than to avoid the stinger!

[vulcan42]

What I don't understand is since 2006 there has been another device, developed by a British company and already being used by the American military but is still being evaluated by our police. This device is a special net that gets wrapped around the front wheels of vehicles and stops it dead in its tracks. The problem with the stinger device is the spikes are hollow to allow the tyre to deflate slowly,this was considered to be safer but unfortunately it still allows the driver to steer it for a short distance, possibly towards the policeman deploying the stinger. The net system wouldn't let that happen.