Olympics To Allow Pre-Surgery Transgenders To Compete As Their Reassigned Gender?

[mushroom25]

looks like it....
http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/id/14626858/olympics-opening-field-competition-transgender-athletes-updated-policy

those born male have physiological advantages over those born female, in terms of strength and power - it's presumably why in sports where that matters, males don't compete against females at the highest level, and why chromosome testing has loomed large for many years.

so if a male elects for re-assignment, does he lose that power advantage over his new opponents just because she says "i'm now female"? if not, how can that possibly be fair and just?

[jackthehat]

Seems a bit wrong-headed to me for precisely those reasons, too.

[Old_Geezer]

I suppose one could argue that it depends how far down the line of reassignment they've gone. If they have the reduced muscle mass it may not be an advantage. But who is to judge ? Seems like the world going insane; they are now making decisions on which unfair advantages are allowed in athletics and which not ?

[jim360]

I expect this is a debate that will go on and on for some time. The only thing I'll say at the moment is that (with the possible exception of state-sponsored programmes in the mid-80s) no-one is going to "choose" to switch their entire gender and corresponding lifestyle just in order to have a possible edge in athletics events. Which in turn means... well, where would athletes who happen to be transgender compete? Seems mean to call a transwoman athletically a man (or vice versa) as that says that you don't accept their identity; and, equally, it is true that transwomen are likely to have some long-term biological advantages over other women.

The whole thing is a mess, but they have to compete somewhere if they're wanting to become athletes. It's further complicated, incidentally, but the possibility of non-XX women or non XY-men in terms of genetic code, so they too would have potential nightmares trying to compete.

In the long run, I think that athletes should be allowed to compete as their assigned gender, though. Even if transwomen might gain some advantage from their biology, that isn't going to give them any hope in hell of winning on its own. They'd still have to put in the effort, training etc, at the same level as any other athlete.

[mushroom25]

//Even if transwomen might gain some advantage from their biology, that isn't going to give them any hope in hell of winning on its own. They'd still have to put in the effort, training etc, at the same level as any other athlete. //

in order to even be selected for the olympics, you have to be at the top of your game. an xy person at the top of their game will always outcompete an xx person at the top of theirs.

[jim360]

Always might be overstating it. In general, yes. But then if the trans* athlete is taking hormonal treatments things get complicated.

It is a difficult question. In the end I think it's more important to ensure that athletes who want to compete are able to, rather than being "fair" in an activity that is all about marginal gains anyway.

[bazwillrun]

"Seems a bit wrong-headed to me"

haha, great pun, intended or not.....

[woofgang]

I think at times of transition in anything....I mean social or organisational transition, its even more difficult, if not impossible to be totally fair to all parties.In such cases, the “greater fairness” takes precedence IMO

[mushroom25]

//In such cases, the “greater fairness” takes precedence IMO //

but where would you draw the "greater fairness" line? would it be ok to use the rules to embark on a programme of state-sponsored gender re-assignment?

[Huderon]

I used to chat to someone who had gone through the whole M to F transition.

As a man, she had been a motor mechanic. As a woman she could no longer do that job because she did not have the physical strength required.

Now I know there are women motor mechanics, but I also have no reason to doubt what I was told. So perhaps there is a bit more to to the change from M to F and vice versa than a change of wardrobe, a different body shape and some surgery.

[woofgang]

Mushroom25, I am not sure what you are asking? The NHS will already give treatment to people who feel the need to transition and can meet the strict requirements.

[Svejk]

If a transman knocks a black lesbian out for a boxing Gold who would count as top trumps?
Do I vaguely remember a (possibly Indian) transman competing at Wimbledon? Surprisingly, I don't think he/she did much good.

[mushroom25]

//Mushroom25, I am not sure what you are asking? //

is it fair that a newly female "xy" can trounce all her "xx" opposition because the "greater fairness" says that her superior power is irrelevant? wouldn't that be "political correctness"?

[mushroom25]

//Do I vaguely remember a (possibly Indian) transman competing at Wimbledon? //

Richard Raskind was a very mediocre tennis player, never progressing beyond round two of the US open and never played wimbledon.

re-emerging as Renee Richards, she was a mediocre tennis player, never progressing beyond round three of the US open and never played wimbledon.

however, for the time (the late 1970s) there was no better ambassador for transgender people.

[jim360]

I guess you mean Renee Richards, who reached the US Open doubles final after transitioning, and was ranked a top 20 player:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards

Perhaps her relatively undistinguished career has a useful lesson: firstly, that it's been done before and will happen again (and presumably the 70s was a less tolerant time); and secondly, she didn't walk it as a women's tennis player. This idea that women who were biologically men will just walk it is not really supported by results -- albeit with a relatively small sample so far.

[woofgang]

that’s why I was talking about a greater fairness in times of organisational transition. The “big" fair decision is made and then the smaller ramifications get unpicked one by one. In some of that unpicking it may be that an individual will be matched against someone with a strength advantage and that this would not have happened in other circumstances. Thats not good but it doesn’t mean that the organisation shouldn’t proceed with the greater fairness.

[woofgang]

sorry, last post was responding to mushroom 25

[jim360]

Then again, reading a little further down the wiki page...

“Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me... There is one thing that a transsexual woman unfortunately cannot expect to be allowed to do, and that is to play professional sports in her chosen field."

It's not impossible that this is self-aggrandisement -- on the other hand, the women's game at the time was not based around power, so she might well have ended up dominating. It is, as I said at the start, a tricky debate.

[joeluke]

Another stupid idea

Cue average male athletes who never win medals suddenly becoming 'women'

[jim360]

Seriously, joeluke? I don't see how anyone can believe that such a thing would actually happen of someone's own choice. It's a completely unrealistic suggestion. And besides, if you had read the article about the transgender tennis player you would see that such a thing has been possible (in that sport) for about 40 years. In those 40 years, exactly no-one else who has played tennis has also been a transwoman (and so, also, no-one in tennis has become a transwoman for cynical sports-related reasons).

[joeluke]

Born a man= always a man
Born a woman= always a woman

No matter how much is changed cosmetically