Is Europe Crumbling?

[naomi24]

According to the Daily Express, Europe is turning against Brussels with anti-EU feeling spreading through the Continent.

Is it?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/648105/Revealed-secret-map-continent-doomed-EU-Europe

[agchristie]

Zacs > Too many people just thinking it's about immigration

I think to some it's such a big deal in itself that it precludes consideration of any other issues around Brexit.

[Togo]

Is Europe Crumbling?

No.... Imploding.

[Zacs-Master]

Ag, I know. That's what I'm trying to say. People are blinded by the media and their own prejudices into believing it's just about that. I firmly believe that 70% of potential voters don't understand the wider implications.

[DTCwordfan]

My major bugbear is that I read that the under 35s are 85% for in. If that is the case, who are we as an older generation to screw up the politics of the EU for the next generation and when I hear, "we won the war and it's our democratic right" - what bloody hyper-ventilated twaddle - political life is now about alliances and negotiation and by this reasoning, a perfect EU or NAFTA or whoever is never on the cards.

By definition, naomi's article does pose the question of whether the major six or eight of the EU could come together and say 'hey, our electorate ain't happy and there needs to be some major structural reform, so Brits, put back your referendum as what you are challenging makes a hell of a lot of sense. Is there an Adenauer amongst the leaders out there?

[Zacs-Master]

Damn good point DT. I do hope there is an Adenaur out there (maybe it's Cameron given half a chance?) but I think your hopes are rather utopian at the moment.

[agchristie]

DTC > My major bugbear is that I read that the under 35s are 85% for in.

That's as maybe, but does that only serve to highlight that such a clear cut majority among the young underlines a naivete and misunderstanding of the debate, which is sort of what Zacs and I have said.

If adults largely don't understand the complexities of the debate how can we expect the young to?

[Zacs-Master]

(We're this the HoC I would be doing that exaggerated nod thing ag)

[DTCwordfan]

I wouldn't necessarily assume that, agc......they can be far better read and have access to instant news technology to a greater degree than us...not saying all by the way. Can I refer to what a Belgian boss of mine once said and he went on to lead the EU Petroleum Association, also he lost three uncles and two aunts in the 2nd WW but then his best company friend was German and they swapped summer/winter houses...."We Belgians, we buy the German Mercedes and washing machines and the love affair stops there. It will take another two generations to get this out of the system, as though I have close German friends, I have tainted my children."

Perhaps the same is true of this EU debate, in that the

[agchristie]

Mind you that 16yo lassie was impressive on QT!

Another example of naive youth, they hero worship Corbyn!!

[DTCwordfan]

next generation perceive the EU and its future in a very different light, perhaps with more optimism? Just food for thought....

[jourdain2]

It does bring to my mind 'In The Wet' (Neville Shute) where multiple votes could be achieved according to education, public service etc.. I believe that the coveted '7 votes' was achieved only after signal service to Britain.

Bit late to instigate that system! We need the electorate to be aware of the arguments, I'm not at all sure that all of them are.

[agchristie]

DT, I wished I could be optimistic but from what I see and read the youth are largely disinterested and disengaged in political matters of importance.

[Zacs-Master]

I'm a bit more 'glass half empty' on this that you DT. I thing 85% of the youth are caught up in the 'get rid of the immigrants and all our problems will be solved' movement. I think you give them too much credit.

As for the youth's support of JC......shudder. Echoes of 1930s Germany again.

[DTCwordfan]

Yes, this may be towards Utopian thoughts or at least towards some quasi John Stuart-Mills logic of State before personal preference and what is better - however, we may be on the cusp of change....and also bear in mind what is happening across the Pond, even more reason for unity in Europe as bloc between the ijiuts there and the Putinites.....not that I think Ronald-McDonald Trump is going to last much longer - with the crap coming out of his mouth, he risks being assassinated by some Arab or Mexican.....

[agchristie]

DT's sentiment is commendable but in this fraught world we cannot have ill-considered logic.

Who is the next 16yo William Hague? (snigger). Seriously, I don't see any real precocious talent out there.

[Zacs-Master]

Ha ha DT, I think MI6 are talking to some sombrero wearers as we speak.

[Zacs-Master]

Ties in nicely with the James Bond thread!

[Togo]

// so Brits, put back your referendum as what you are challenging makes a hell of a lot of sense//

Methinks not. We were promised a referendum. As the exit vote gains momentum this is exactly what will be touted. A deferendum to buy time for more spin and falsehood. Bribe us with our own money, whip the civil service in, and, ha ha, make the BBC shut up because it becomes clear that they are helping the outers more.

[DTCwordfan]

Zacs - which brings us full circle on the fact that immigration into the EU is not going to be solved by this referendum, or rather the UK's position improved.

Interesting perceptions by Merv King today that he feels that the China economy plus ME politics + Brexit and its EU ramifications adds up to a high risk of a very serious global recession within 3 years, and that the bankers in the EU and US have done relatively sweet f-all to changing market structures and control mechanisms.

[Zacs-Master]

Agreed. As for the bankers.....similar the Jezza Corbyn being a socialist and living in a Manor House. Whatever happens (baring a nuclear war) it won't affect them so they can pontificate to their hearts content.