Crosswords3 mins ago
Was Margaret Thatcher Right?
I confess that during the 80's I was opposed to much of what she was doing, but I now think, with the luxury of hindsight, that I have to agree with Niall Ferguson, do you agree?
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//sold off council houses cheaply - funny that, isn't it usually socialists who are accused of dishing out other people's money?//
The people who were trapped in the local authority property empires, with no way of saving up deposits to get out and join the property owning ladder, had paid for the houses many over in some cases with no maintenance or regeneration programmes because all income from the properties was used to featherbed the lives of council workers and councillors. So it is OK for the socialists to dole out dosh to who they choose but a crime if a Conservative Government gives a deserved leg up to millions. Enough said really.
The people who were trapped in the local authority property empires, with no way of saving up deposits to get out and join the property owning ladder, had paid for the houses many over in some cases with no maintenance or regeneration programmes because all income from the properties was used to featherbed the lives of council workers and councillors. So it is OK for the socialists to dole out dosh to who they choose but a crime if a Conservative Government gives a deserved leg up to millions. Enough said really.
“The poll tax was manifestly unfair with everyone supposed to pay a similar amount regardless of circumstances”
Totally unlike the domestic rates which it replaced and er… which replaced the so-called Poll Tax.
One of the biggest mistakes was allowing it to be referred to as a “Poll Tax”. This implied that it was in some way linked to the right to vote. It was a perfectly fair tax (as fair as anything like that is). Far fairer to make a charge per capita than to charge per household.
“She sent me to the Falklands, longest trip I'd ever been on, and all for free, but I still like her ;o)”
What, didn’t you like it down there, Balders? I went there in 1969, long before they became famous. They seemed OK to me. I know you did a bit of touring around and I understand there were some foreign Johnnies down there to keep you company. What was your hotel like? Were you all inclusive? :-)
“The basic error with the Plan, was that local councils, who owned the properties, were forbidden from using the money raised, to build replacement homes. “
No Mikey, you miss the point. The Plan was that the financial burden of running housing was to be seriously reduced. Little point in flogging off one load of houses which cost a fortune in subsidies only to build another lot. The article you provided a link to explains it quite clearly.
“Big Bang in the City derestricted financial institutions, setting the satage for the subprime crisis that the country has yet to recover from.”
The “Big Bang” did no such thing. The sub-prime crisis was born in the USA and the UK financial institutions would have been more likely to have been “sucked into it” had they still been the cosy Coterie of Old Boys that had been running the Stock Exchange for the previous 200 years.
Totally unlike the domestic rates which it replaced and er… which replaced the so-called Poll Tax.
One of the biggest mistakes was allowing it to be referred to as a “Poll Tax”. This implied that it was in some way linked to the right to vote. It was a perfectly fair tax (as fair as anything like that is). Far fairer to make a charge per capita than to charge per household.
“She sent me to the Falklands, longest trip I'd ever been on, and all for free, but I still like her ;o)”
What, didn’t you like it down there, Balders? I went there in 1969, long before they became famous. They seemed OK to me. I know you did a bit of touring around and I understand there were some foreign Johnnies down there to keep you company. What was your hotel like? Were you all inclusive? :-)
“The basic error with the Plan, was that local councils, who owned the properties, were forbidden from using the money raised, to build replacement homes. “
No Mikey, you miss the point. The Plan was that the financial burden of running housing was to be seriously reduced. Little point in flogging off one load of houses which cost a fortune in subsidies only to build another lot. The article you provided a link to explains it quite clearly.
“Big Bang in the City derestricted financial institutions, setting the satage for the subprime crisis that the country has yet to recover from.”
The “Big Bang” did no such thing. The sub-prime crisis was born in the USA and the UK financial institutions would have been more likely to have been “sucked into it” had they still been the cosy Coterie of Old Boys that had been running the Stock Exchange for the previous 200 years.
NJ....
I am not against people being able to buy their Council house in principle, but there was a basic flaw in the plan. She sold off the countries rental housing stock, and didn't allow the Councils to use the money raised to build replacements.
Not everybody is going to be able to buy a property and we will always need a rental sector. In fact, if the price on those Council houses were not artificially reduced, most of those buyers wouldn't have been able to afford to buy them.
We still need a viable rental sector, priced at a sensible rate, so that ordinary people, doing ordinary jobs can afford. That was what Council Housing was supposed to be, and now most of it is gone.
I am not against people being able to buy their Council house in principle, but there was a basic flaw in the plan. She sold off the countries rental housing stock, and didn't allow the Councils to use the money raised to build replacements.
Not everybody is going to be able to buy a property and we will always need a rental sector. In fact, if the price on those Council houses were not artificially reduced, most of those buyers wouldn't have been able to afford to buy them.
We still need a viable rental sector, priced at a sensible rate, so that ordinary people, doing ordinary jobs can afford. That was what Council Housing was supposed to be, and now most of it is gone.
Having read all of the answers put forward by A/Bers, I am totally in agreement with mikey4444.
I'm with Jo here, and others.
She presided over mass unemployment, and that ludicrous plan to sell off every council house, thus ensuring that we have the housing crisis of today.
She sold off every national assert that wasn't firmly nailed down, thus we now have very expensive water, gas and electric bills. Her successors privatised the railways, thus we now have a very expensive transport system, that doesn't even work very well.
On another thread this morning, we are seeing the long term consequences of one of her flag-ship policies....."Care in the Community"
The selling off of national care assets that used to provide for our sick and ill, but are now blocks of luxury flats or "executive" housing estates, where nobody but the wealthy can afford to live,If you were middle class, she was wonderful, but if you were poor, old or disadvantaged, she was the pits........Ghastly woman. THAT woman is guilty of a helping hand in the ruination of this country.
I'm with Jo here, and others.
She presided over mass unemployment, and that ludicrous plan to sell off every council house, thus ensuring that we have the housing crisis of today.
She sold off every national assert that wasn't firmly nailed down, thus we now have very expensive water, gas and electric bills. Her successors privatised the railways, thus we now have a very expensive transport system, that doesn't even work very well.
On another thread this morning, we are seeing the long term consequences of one of her flag-ship policies....."Care in the Community"
The selling off of national care assets that used to provide for our sick and ill, but are now blocks of luxury flats or "executive" housing estates, where nobody but the wealthy can afford to live,If you were middle class, she was wonderful, but if you were poor, old or disadvantaged, she was the pits........Ghastly woman. THAT woman is guilty of a helping hand in the ruination of this country.
N.J. //It was a perfectly fair tax// "The Community Charge (commonly known as the "poll tax") was a system of taxation introduced in replacement of domestic rates in Scotland from 1989, prior to its introduction in England and Wales from 1990. It provided for a single flat-rate per-capita tax on every adult, at a rate set by the local authority. The charge was replaced by Council Tax in 1993, two years after its abolition was announced." https:/
What was fair about it? Everyone regardless of income or property assets had to pay the same amount. That was why the invalided, landed lords, were coming into town in private ambulances to registered their vote for it.
What was fair about it? Everyone regardless of income or property assets had to pay the same amount. That was why the invalided, landed lords, were coming into town in private ambulances to registered their vote for it.
Why do posters keep insisting that the sale of council houses has caused todays housing shortage? Are these houses all now standing empty or have they been knocked down? As far as I can see if they were still in council hands they would now be filled with illegal immigrants instead of home owners. There is you housing shortage in a nutshell. Bliar's policy of flooding the UK with immigrants with no plan to house them. Wicked. Mind you he has enough property to take a few of his guests.
-- answer removed --
Togo; //No link or factual evidence these events?//
No, but I remember accounts at the time of the elderly and infirm being brought into the House of Lords to vote.
Regarding the unfairness of it;
https:/
I agree it was a bad decision to try to implement it, but after all, it didn't happen. The OP though is really about Europe today.
No, but I remember accounts at the time of the elderly and infirm being brought into the House of Lords to vote.
Regarding the unfairness of it;
https:/
I agree it was a bad decision to try to implement it, but after all, it didn't happen. The OP though is really about Europe today.
“What was fair about it? Everyone regardless of income or property assets had to pay the same amount.”
It was scarcely any different to the Council Tax it replaced and which replaced it. The fact that somebody lives in a big house does not mean they have money to shell out to councils for them to waste. The current Council Tax takes no account of income and is manifestly unfair when a pensioner couple living on a modest fixed income pays the same as a family living next door with two parents and two adult children all working. At least the Community charge levied charges on a per capita basis and the sort of anomaly I describe did not exist. Neither scheme takes any account of ability to pay.
Mrs Thatcher didn’t get everything right. But one thing she did get right was the taming of the Unions. Anybody who lived through the 1970s will recall that it was rare to see a day where you were not without a vital service of some sort: power, transport, dustbins emptied, gravediggers. The list was endless. On top of that nationalised industries were sucking cash from the taxpayer at an alarming rate to fund strikes, go-slows, work to rules and various other industrial inaction. I was just an ordinary working Joe in the 1970s who simply wanted to earn a decent living. I was very often prevented from doing so by some sort of industrial action called by people who had no concern or respect for the people their members were meant to be serving. I look back on the Thatcher era with great fondness and whilst I did not agree with everything she did if she had not been around the country could not have continued as it was without a very major crisis. Lots of people in the UK had to adjust but the root cause was not her fault. The cause was the lily-livered pathetic leaders who had gone before who had abandoned all responsibility for the country's well being.
It was scarcely any different to the Council Tax it replaced and which replaced it. The fact that somebody lives in a big house does not mean they have money to shell out to councils for them to waste. The current Council Tax takes no account of income and is manifestly unfair when a pensioner couple living on a modest fixed income pays the same as a family living next door with two parents and two adult children all working. At least the Community charge levied charges on a per capita basis and the sort of anomaly I describe did not exist. Neither scheme takes any account of ability to pay.
Mrs Thatcher didn’t get everything right. But one thing she did get right was the taming of the Unions. Anybody who lived through the 1970s will recall that it was rare to see a day where you were not without a vital service of some sort: power, transport, dustbins emptied, gravediggers. The list was endless. On top of that nationalised industries were sucking cash from the taxpayer at an alarming rate to fund strikes, go-slows, work to rules and various other industrial inaction. I was just an ordinary working Joe in the 1970s who simply wanted to earn a decent living. I was very often prevented from doing so by some sort of industrial action called by people who had no concern or respect for the people their members were meant to be serving. I look back on the Thatcher era with great fondness and whilst I did not agree with everything she did if she had not been around the country could not have continued as it was without a very major crisis. Lots of people in the UK had to adjust but the root cause was not her fault. The cause was the lily-livered pathetic leaders who had gone before who had abandoned all responsibility for the country's well being.
//No, but I remember accounts at the time of the elderly and infirm being brought into the House of Lords to vote.//
Really Khandro that is so weak a point to make. You mean you imagined it, but now you want to make it an unchallenged fact? How many then? Hundreds, 80, 90, a dozen, 1? As I said a feeble, non fact.
Really Khandro that is so weak a point to make. You mean you imagined it, but now you want to make it an unchallenged fact? How many then? Hundreds, 80, 90, a dozen, 1? As I said a feeble, non fact.
"how long the tenants had been held hostage, by the councils" LMAO Good one. Who'd have thought that giving those in need a helping hand could be twisted so.
Of course it caused the shortage because this bribing for votes with taxpayer's money ensured the lucky few got a cut price house which has since, because it is now in private hands, been sold at higher and higher prices and no longer part of the lower price housing stock where the shortage is.
Terrible politician. Never seemed to learn. Caused no end of misery with her passion for Monetarism.
Of course it caused the shortage because this bribing for votes with taxpayer's money ensured the lucky few got a cut price house which has since, because it is now in private hands, been sold at higher and higher prices and no longer part of the lower price housing stock where the shortage is.
Terrible politician. Never seemed to learn. Caused no end of misery with her passion for Monetarism.
Silly discussion. Domestic rates is a bad system as it penalises those who buy property with their money and allows those who live umpteen to a property to avoid contributing a fair amount. The Poll Tax was an absolutely awful option as it took no account of a person's ability to contribute. Supporters of either should be ashamed. Tax based on income is the only fair option as one pays into the community in proportion to what one gets out of it. That said when the Liberals suggested it they came up with ludicrously high levels of tax, presumably to ensure no one would support it.
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