The Will Of The People ?

[Canary42]

I wonder how many of the democracy-loving Brextremists will review this with their usual blinkers well in place.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/britons-want-another-eu-referendum-say-government-bungling-brexit-negotiations-131308791.html

[Zacs-Master]

Did you, sorry. Would you kindly list them out again as they seem to have gotten lost in the mire?

[Zacs-Master]

Ah, hold on, I think I might have found a few but they look more like unfounded opinions rather than facts
‘we can do immediate tarrifs too! / we slap x% on all imports when they do or they rise by WTO rules‘
I think I covered those in my MFN post.

[New Judge]

“WTO rules will NOT apply to the EU countries we trade with because......they’re protected by the EU!”

Someone, somewhere, has hold of the wrong end of the stick here, Zacs.

Much as it would like you to think otherwise, the EU and its component nations are bound by WTO rules and tariffs when dealing with any country with whom it has no specific agreement to the contrary. If Brexit is concluded with “no deal” that will include the UK. Of course there will be initial difficulties with such an arrangement. However, other nations manage to trade with the EU perfectly well under those conditions and the UK government and UK companies will have had almost three years to prepare for such an eventuality by next March. The fact that neither has done so is scarcely a good reason to say we’d better not do it.

EU “protection” (which I prefer to see as “protectionism” – a slightly different concept) does not trump WTO rules. Similarly with aviation, there is talk that flights to or from the UK, or even passing over the UK en route to the EU, will not be permitted to fly. This again gives the impression that EU rules somehow override international agreements. Civil aviation is governed by the 1944 Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation (most recently revised in 2006) to which all nations that are members of the UN are signatories. You can see from this summary:

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Chicago_Convention

that the third, fourth and fifth “freedoms” provided by that convention relate to the prohibitions that some parties seem to think will follow a “no deal” Brexit. Whilst it is true that these freedoms are not automatic but are provided by national agreement, I believe the EU (or its member nations) will have some difficulty in unilaterally derogating from the Convention for what are purely political reasons.

The EU may well have succeeded in forcing its gullible member nations into allowing its national law to be usurped. But thusfar it has not managed a similar feat where global conventions and agreements are involved.

[Zacs-Master]

(See Torah, that’s how to debate^^^^)

Yes, apologies NJ (I actually thought I’d taken that inaccuracy out....must proof read my posts before submitting). I was trying to point out to Torah that the playing field will not be level, as he was implying with his Punch and Judy stick scenario.

[ToraToraTora]

PMSL, I said the same as the judge, less eloquently and with less details but it amounts to the same thing, WTO applies to both sides, end of.

[Zacs-Master]

See my 12:11 post.

[zebo]

I haven't trawled through all the answers, I'm sure that the majority are predictable. However, I do hope that this fiasco will ensure that no government, of whatever colour, ever again puts such an important issue into a referendum!

[ToraToraTora]

you mean you don't trust the people to give the "correct" answer zebo?

[zebo]

The vast majority of people who voted, whichever way, had no idea what the consequences would be, whoever 'won'. Neither side presented a plausible case, we were being asked to vote blind as the mechanism for withdrawal wasn't in existence.

[jim360]

Even if you accept that having a referendum was important -- and, at least beforehand, I was one of those calling for a referendum -- it surely shouldn't be controversial that in future, referendums should be held *after* preparations for both answers have been made, rather than before.

[ToraToraTora]

zebo, cobras, they knew but they didn't expect the VB circus that ensued.

[Zacs-Master]

It’s a bit like the Spanish Inquisition.

[baza]

I thought the paper was simple, in or out , put your x in what you hope will be the result you want. When the result was not what you wanted then sulk, and blame everybody else for being not as savvy as you are.

[ToraToraTora]

bang on baza. Simplest vote in history made complex by the SGB.

[Garaman]

//Much as it would like you to think otherwise, the EU and its component nations are bound by WTO rules and tariffs when dealing with any country with whom it has no specific agreement to the contrary. If Brexit is concluded with “no deal” that will include the UK. Of course there will be initial difficulties with such an arrangement. However, other nations manage to trade with the EU perfectly well under those conditions //

I read somewhere that no developed nation trades with the EU solely under WTO rules. Is that not true?

[jim360]

If you really thought it was a simple vote then you were, there's no other way to put this, deluded.

[Zacs-Master]

Correct Garaman. All this talk of level playing fields is rubbish. There aren’t even level playing fields within the EU. EU member countries have national control over services regulation and supervision. A fully level playing field in services trade does not exist within the EU, exporters from outside the EU face different levels of market access in individual EU countries. If the UK does trade under the GATS agreement, then our market access will be far more limited than it is currently.

[baza]

jim360, you must be one of those I mentioned, the paper was simple, the politicians have, with the losers, made it hard work to get out of the club.

[Zacs-Master]

But they were always going to.

[baza]

ZM , too true.