It's A Very Scary Time For Young Men In America, Do You Agree?

[anotheoldgit]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6232535/Trump-says-scary-situation-men-era-sons-DailyMailTV-interview.html

Yes I know Trump said it, but please don't turn this into yet another anti-Trump thread, please address it on the fact that if one is a man (no matter of what nationality) one can be deemed guilty until proven innocent.

[anotheoldgit]

I often wonder how 'courting couples' go on today when they are locked together in a passionate embrace and the male's hands start to wander, do they first have to obtain written permission from the female now, or is the time honoured slap across the face still in valid?

[AuntLydia]

jim may I respectfully suggest you are living in the past? Go watch what goes on in a typical university town at the weekend. There are as many females fighting swearing, pulling down their knickers to pee in the street as there are men. Trouble is if one of those men go to help a stricken female they could be accused of 'groping'.

[AuntLydia]

AOG it depends if he's a footballer or not ;-)

[retrocop]

Where's your finesse Mr aog?. A packet of crisps and a Babycham first.

[Rockrose]

No I disagree strongly. If the men accused did’nt behave in a manner where their conduct deserves to be questioned then they wouldn’t need to be afraid.

[rowanwitch]

Again it is a matter of degrees, I agree that those who are suffering from wandering hands need to be stopped, and where there is abuse of positions of authority complaints should be dealt with appropriately. What I do find annoying is when normal flirtatious behaviour and conversation is blown out of all proportion. All you have to do is say stop or I will take further action. That's normally enough. I did threaten a very handy urologist once. I pointed out unwanted touching was assault and if he didn't stop I would take it to senior management. He said he was being friendly.

[Sqad]

JIm...I haven't got the statistics to hand, but from my experience of parties, clubs, dances and thrashes, women's behavior some 50 years ago was far superior to that of the present time, engendering the appropriate respect from men.

[anotheoldgit]

rowanwitch

/// AOG, I am also sure that many women travelling alone appreciated a gentleman who didn't join them leaving both parties feeling safer. ///

Wasn't always possible, especially on a crowded train, why they didn't have Female only carriages I do not know.

[jim360]

As to the "guilty until proven innocent" point -- while this has some weight, it's important to distinguish legal considerations from moral ones. I have no doubt that, were I on the jury in Kavanaugh's trial, I would have full respect for the "innocent until proven guilty" principle and acquit him of these charges. Based on what has been presented so far, no jury could do anything but acquit. But that is fundamentally different from social and moral considerations. As I have already mentioned, it's transparently obvious that Kavanaugh is the more untrustworthy of the two, and has lied -- there is no other word for it -- about his drinking habits. That alone should be enough to end his chances of becoming a Supreme Court judge, let alone the fiery and partisan display at last week's hearing.

Also, although I don't wish to dwell on this too greatly, Kavanaugh's denial means little. Why should he remember an incident from 36 years ago, during which time he was probably, if not drunk, then certainly the worse for wear, which probably meant rather little to him? On the other hand, anyone can tell you that being the victim of a crime leaves emotional scars even after the specific details have long faded. Hence, the fact that Blasey Ford's account has serious gaps in it is -- and should be -- enough to undermine any hope of criminal conviction, but should hardly be enough, as Trump did, to call her a liar and a political pawn. It's just not reasonable to expect her memory of the event beforehand (fairly meaningless) and afterwards (likely to be a dazed blur) to be as complete as the definite emotional aspects of feeling vulnerable and being laughed at.

My point, anyway, is that we are hardly living in a world of "guilty until proven innocent" -- or certainly no more so than we ever have been -- because you are confusing legal principles with social ones. The balance of power is shifting away from a time when sexual predators could guarantee the silence of victims through fear; that can only be a good thing.

[Sqad]

In my "limited " experience....some 50 years or more ago a young man would either go out to get drunk OR go out to pick up a woman.....NOT BOTH.
One would rarely mix the womanising with the drinking.

[jim360]

@AL -- I'm surprised of being accused of living in the past when I am sure I'm one of the youngest members of AB. Perhaps you are confusing my post for a claim that women are (and/or always have been) universally virtuous? If that's the case, then no, I'm not making any claim of the sort; merely pointing out that the imbalance of power between men and women is being somewhat redressed lately, and that the world is gradually waking up to how stark this imbalance has been. That hardly absolves certain women of any guilt they may have for loutish behaviour.

[anotheoldgit]

retrocop

/// Where's your finesse Mr aog?. A packet of crisps and a Babycham first. ///

Yes and the time when hands would slowly join together in the darkness on the back seat of the cinema.

That was the first hurdle over then the arm around the girl's shoulder, bliss simply bliss.

[rowanwitch]

I know it is not something people want to hear but I don't think some young women realise their innuendo laden talk, and general behaviour makes it more likely a susceptible young man might think his approaches however crude might be welcomed. Of course women and girls should have the right to say stop, and if they have been assaulted or felt threatened have a right to redress but it isn't a level playing field now. It has come to something when friends with children are more concerned for their sons than their daughters.

[jim360]

"I often wonder how 'courting couples' go on today when they are locked together in a passionate embrace and the male's hands start to wander, do they first have to obtain written permission from the female now..."

No, don't be stupid -- you just listen if the woman asks you to stop, is all, and pay more attention to how she's responding.

Or, of course, you could go about obtaining verbal permission, but I don't see how this is anything other than a good thing either, because even if you think it un-necessary I'm sure there are ways that a bit of talking can add to the pleasure of the event..

[rowanwitch]

AOG, years ago they had women only compartments on main line trains and it was always the accepted thing on the underground that ladies travelling alone used the last carriage where the guard was.
Didn't help when on one late night journey the guard tried his luck thinking I'd been drinking, but that's a story for another day.

[-Talbot-]

My point, anyway, is that we are hardly living in a world of "guilty until proven innocent"



In Kavanaugh's case, we are.

[anotheoldgit]

jim360

Don't call me stupid, name calling is forbidden don't you know?

[jim360]

I've explained already why that's not true, so I don't see the need to repeat the refutation of AOG's point.

But, if it helps, one need only look at Trump's speech, and Lindsey Graham's outburst, to see how nonsensical the claim is. Most of the people in power that matter are too busy accusing the women of being liars and/or sluts for it to hold any weight.

Incidentally, when will they notice the irony in viciously, loudly, and publicly attacking the women accusing Kavanaugh (and others) of sexual assault, whilst also wondering why it is they never thought to come forward sooner?

I honestly find this fear that young men are somehow at terrible risk right now nothing short of pathetic and hypocritical.

[jackthehat]

///My point, anyway, is that we are hardly living in a world of "guilty until proven innocent"

In Kavanaugh's case, we are. ///

It's not so bad, he's got the 'most important man in the world' poking fun at his accuser and calling her a liar......

[-Talbot-]

Clearly, some people who have posted 'innocent until proven guilty' don't really care about that in this particular case.