Brexit

[gulliver1]

DOMINIC RAAB , GOES!.

[jim360]

I think the point I'm making is that "fulfilling our obligations" means a great deal more than you seem to be allowing for. It includes, among other things, obligations to EU citizens in the EU, and to UK citizens in the EU. It includes obligations to Northern Ireland, in terms of the Good Friday Agreement. It includes financial obligations, both to the current EU budget cycle as well as to future payments with respect to pensions. It includes obligations to respecting existing trade arrangements. And on, and on.

Further, there are moral obligations, as the UK having taken this decision is obligated to ensure that the transition happens with the minimum of disruption, both to our citizens and to the EU.

I'd encourage you to read the agreement and see how it tries to address some of these. The compromises that have been made in order to try essentially amount to ceding all influence we had over EU regulations while still paying towards the EU, and still accepting those regulations as they are passed elsewhere. It's a disastrous deal -- but my point is that its nature is such because of the effort to "fulfill our obligations".

If, after all, something better was possible, can you explain where the deal should change to still meet that test, while not being such a mess?

[jim360]

It was linked to earlier, but in case you missed it, here's the draft text in full again:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/756374/14_November_Draft_Agreement_on_the_Withdrawal_of_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland_from_the_European_Union.pdf

[naomi24]

Jim, //It's a disastrous deal ....can you explain where the deal should change to still meet that test//

If you think a deal is the only way, perhaps you should explain where it should change.

[Adfa]

I find it quite ironic that that had it not been for the Gina Miller campaign on a parliamentary vote on triggering Article 50 it would all be done and dusted (bar the revolution)

[jim360]

As far as I see it, there are two choices: either accept this mess of a deal, in the hopes that it can be repaired; or back down and ask the people, once again, if this is what they meant by leaving.

Now it's your turn to answer.

[naomi24]

I've answered several times but I'll do it again. No deal.

[youngmafbog]

I'm with Naomi.

[jim360]

Fair enough. But "no deal" doesn't fulfil our obligations, really, so which is more important?

You ain't gonna get "no deal" by voting Labour, either, ymb.

[gulliver1]

I will answer you now Jim , No Brexit.

[youngmafbog]

jim, if I am voting labour it is becasue May has already sold us down the river with part of the deal being we can only leave if the EU say we can. So you are correct.

[Zacs-Master]

(Shakes head)

[youngmafbog]

Good for you ZM.

[emmie]

Mrs May said a No Deal is better than a Bad Deal did she not, so how come we could end up down the swanee with no paddle.

[zebo]

It was a referendum that created this almighty mess in the first place. If there were another and the vote was to remain then Europe would be able to dictate for the forseeable future. I would hope that if this debacle has taught us anything it's that some things are too important to be put to a single issue referendum.

[Kromovaracun]

//Mrs May said a No Deal is better than a Bad Deal did she not//

She did. Unfortunately, she was lying. No-deal is about the most destructive scenario possible for the UK, so this was never a terribly meaningful statement in the first place.

[Old_Geezer]

I appreciate that the public may not be shown everything but so far I've not been made aware of any documented obligations; merely claimed ones from folk who don't admit one doesn't retain obligations one had as a member of something after one leaves the group. No deal is therefore fine. Nothing else comes close to being valid.

[jim360]

http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/dominic-raab-resigns-after-admitting-that-theresa-may-has-failed-in-the-job-he-was-supposed-to-be-doing/

[Old_Geezer]

It causes more disruption for all, but that is being forced by the inability of the other side of the table to be reasonable. All change has some disruption, we can cope well enough to achieve a better future.

[emmie]

but a No Deal would better in the longer term, after all accepting what is on offer ties us hands, feet to the EU for good.

[Old_Geezer]

Seemed fairly obvious at the time that he was put into position as figurehead while the PM followed her remainer instincts.