Should Westminster Allow Indyref2?

[ToraToraTora]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48053363
I think they should let wee Jimmy get it out of her system once and for all.

[ToraToraTora]

jim, as I said in the OP I am 100% in favour of indyref2, I would also add that if you allow the English to vote you'd win hands down.

[JimF]

"It's quite OK by me to hate the English"

That's what I meant by "utter garbage".

[ToraToraTora]

sorry, you don't hate the English?? You'd rather be dependent on a bunch of unelected corrupt foreigners of which you have no chance of influencing but you want to leave the UK which has been lead by many Scotts?? you are going to have to explain that one mate!

[JimF]

No, I don't hate the English. Nor do I know any Scot who does, so I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge on that one.

And can you truly not see just how much a small, independent nation like Scotland would benefit from EU membership?

[anneasquith]

And again, too many t*s :.(

[THECORBYLOON]

TTT, do you have a box of Porage Oats in front of you?

[ToraToraTora]

then jimf please explain why you want to leave the UK but immediately join the EU, where you will have pretty close to no say even if the deign to accept you?
"And can you truly not see just how much a small, independent nation like Scotland would benefit from EU membership? " - well stop calling it independence then! different dependence is what it is and you'll get mullered. You're 110% (look up Barnett formula) now, do you think you'll improve on that in the EU? They will hog tie you before you start.

[New Judge]

"I'm English, nj. We haven't been asked, have we?"

Sorry, pixie, I misunderstood. I thought you were asking on behalf of the Scots.

Part of me thinks that the entire UK should vote whether they still want Scotland to be a member of the Union. But they could only be asked if they want them to leave (or more accurately be thrown out) not to compel them to remain. An analogy could be made with the EU. If all EU citizens were to be asked about the UK's membership they could only be canvassed as to whether they still want the UK as a member, not if they want to force them to stay. Bit like a club really: "Do you want NJ to remain a member of the club or do you want him thrown out?" You couldn't ask "Must NJ remain a member of the club or leave?"

If it's to be a true choice of either membership or non-membership, only the Scots can decide.

[JimF]

Membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers. Tariff-free trade within the EU i.e. no non-tariff barriers (quotas, subsidies, administrative rules etc.) among members. Participation in free trade agreements with Japan and Canada as an EU member. Free movement of labour. No paperwork or customs for UK exports throughout the single market. The right to reside in any EU member state and to work in 28 countries without visa and immigration restrictions.

[pixie374]

True enough, so we are not allowed to leave them...

[youngmafbog]

And told what to do jimF.

That is NOT independence.

" Tariff-free trade "

This does not exist for the UK, we pay billions to Trade so not exactly tarrif free. Perhaps you expect Scotland to be a Net gainer? If the UK does leave the EU then I would doubt that would happen at all. No brass left.

You do realise that you would have to adopt the Euro as your currency and no doubt join Shengen?

[dannyk13]

Yes, and then they can allow Yorkshire to follow suit.

[New Judge]

Saying the EU is tariff free is rather like saying treatment on the NHS is free. The UK pays about £10bn a year for "free" trading. This is borne by every taxpayer whether or not they have dealings with the EU.

[KARL]

The trend in this discussion strikes me as quite futile. After Brexit, no matter what the outcome, the UK will not be independent - it will still have to fit in with the rest of the world, what may change is the shade, not the colour. NJ is correct, this is a matter for Scotland to decide and not for England to dictate whether directly (law) or indirectly (majority vote). Those nations that are members of Schengen and using the Euro appear quite happy (overwhelming majority) with the arrangement if those I know are anything to go by, none of whom would want to turn back the clock (which on the other hand is a strong UK sentiment). The Euro has, since its inception turned out a more stable/valuable currency than certainly I might have expected - if that is undesirable then of course the Pound is better. The semi-religious presumption that the EU, anything foreign ("forrin"), new, etc. is irrevocably to be classed as undesirable/bad is for simpletons. Ill informed/thought out insular decisions are not the route to nirvana.

[ToraToraTora]

jim 23:03 - that's not "independence" though is it, so can we stop this charade of "indyref2"?

[KARL]

TTT, I think the operative definition is whether Scotland's affairs are permanently to be led by the rest of the UK (from within the Union Scotland will never be able to overrule any decision based on overall UK voting and/or Westminster's decisions) or whether Scotland is to decide for itself. That includes deciding whether or not to be a member of the EU, i.e. it is independence from the UK that is the question.

[New Judge]

I don’t know who you’ve been asking about the euro and Schengen, Karl.

The single currency has been an absolute disaster for the peripheral states. It has led to near national bankruptcy in Greece (only avoided by the imposition of strict budgetary control from Brussels/Strasbourg). It has led to mass unemployment in Italy, Spain, Greece with young people particularly hard hit. Although the figures have improved recently, overall unemployment in those nations still stands at 11%, 14% and 18% respectively. The youth unemployment figures are far worse at 34%, 39% and 44%. As recently as 2015 over half of those under 25 in Greece were without a job. This is a direct result of those countries suffering “internal deflation”. Being unable to promote trade by means of currency fluctuations they are locked into a currency which was designed primarily for Germany. They were allowed to borrow huge sums in a currency they could not afford and the result is plain to see. There were ample warnings prior to its introduction that the euro was a “fair weather” project which would be fine so long as there were no problems but flawed to a such degree that it would not cope with less than ideal conditions. Well, unsurprisingly, there have been problems leaving the people of those nations to pick up the pieces (which is all they are able to afford). As well as this Italy is on the brink of a full blown default which will make a No Deal Brexit seem like a Teddy Bears’ Picnic. Meanwhile Germany continues to run an annual 8% current account surplus (much of it sucked from the peripheral states) which it has done for years, despite the Lisbon Treaty dictating that it should not exceed 3%.

Schengen is another fair weather project. It allows free movement to those entitled to be within its bounds. But it also affords the same privilege to those not so entitled. So we see Frau Merkel inviting all and sundry to Germany and lo and behold they have not all remained there. Ask the people of Malmo in Sweden how they feel about the Schengen Agreement. Their city has a population of around 350,000. More than 135,000 of those are of foreign extraction and over 95,000 of them were born outside the EU. I would hazard a guess that a sizeable number of them arrived elsewhere in Europe and took advantage of Schengen.

[Zacs-Master]

C'mon, NJ. It's only been a disaster for the countries who had very dodgy monetary 'systems' in the first place. I know a hotel owner quite well and he's shown me the books he keeps for himself and the ones he shows to the tax people.

[Zacs-Master]

That should have read 'Greek' hotel owner.

[Old_Geezer]

The SNP will never get it out of their system. It's their raison d'etre. And it is an extremely bad precedent to copy the EU and have votes until the desired result occurs. That is one reason (of many) we are Brexiting. Let them vote again in a few decades time when a new generation feels it's time to broach the subject again.