ChatterBank1 min ago
Personal Freedom?
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This piece gives pause for thought - at what point does the protection of the population violate civil liberties?
In America, a culture far more twitchy about perceived rights to curb any of its freedoms, the notion of a government dictating just about anything designed to keep the public safe from itself meets with howls of protest and quoting the Constitution.
Over here we are slightly more reasonable, but the 'mask' question has caused similar debates to spring up.
Do you feel that you have a right not to wear a mask if you choose not to, because it infringes on your freedom of choice, or do you feel that mandatory mask wearing and enforcement is justified for the good of the majority, and on that basis, personal freedom needs to take a back seat?
- just click the 'Free Browse' button.
This piece gives pause for thought - at what point does the protection of the population violate civil liberties?
In America, a culture far more twitchy about perceived rights to curb any of its freedoms, the notion of a government dictating just about anything designed to keep the public safe from itself meets with howls of protest and quoting the Constitution.
Over here we are slightly more reasonable, but the 'mask' question has caused similar debates to spring up.
Do you feel that you have a right not to wear a mask if you choose not to, because it infringes on your freedom of choice, or do you feel that mandatory mask wearing and enforcement is justified for the good of the majority, and on that basis, personal freedom needs to take a back seat?
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I absolutely agree that community safety trumps personal freedom. I am not free to drive on the pavement, keep a dog who bites and allow it to roam freely in public, sell a house with dangerous gas or electric installations and many other things.
I know (because I have read the research) that face covering wearing, which is what is mandatory, NOT masks, has at best only a small effect even when done properly, which, in many cases it seems not to be. (and tha's my year's allowance of commas used up)
But but but....if we are in a situation where even a little benefit is helpful and if wearing face coverings has a social effect of reminding people of the situation that we are in and that we all need to be careful, then I think that making it mandatory in certain situations is right.
All of us of course have the right to break any law that we may choose and to take the consequences.
I know (because I have read the research) that face covering wearing, which is what is mandatory, NOT masks, has at best only a small effect even when done properly, which, in many cases it seems not to be. (and tha's my year's allowance of commas used up)
But but but....if we are in a situation where even a little benefit is helpful and if wearing face coverings has a social effect of reminding people of the situation that we are in and that we all need to be careful, then I think that making it mandatory in certain situations is right.
All of us of course have the right to break any law that we may choose and to take the consequences.
//As I understand it, wearing a mask is now a matter of law in many indoor settings (eg shops, public transport), and more or less everywhere else from this Saturday. Rightly or wrongly, I'd assume this should come into the picture when making a decision.//
The law is that you must wear one unless you are either exempt (by way of age, or you’re working in the shop, etc.) or you have a “reasonable excuse”.
//…and even if you hold that the evidence for their efficacy is tenuous I just don't see why it could be so offensive to just put a mask on when you need to. It's a mild inconvenience//
It’s not a mild inconvenience, it’s a considerable inconvenience. If you tried to do some shopping using public transport and then go for a coffee or breakfast, then a bit more shopping you'd understand. But that’s not the reason for my objection. I’m really not concerned about the benefits to others because the evidence that they prevent spread is about as weighty as that showing they do not and I really cannot be bothered to argue the matter, especially when infection rates are extremely low as they are at present. But wearing one considerably increases (albeit from negligible to almost negligible) the risk of infection to me. Not something I am prepared to tolerate.
Like others, I believe this measure will last probably indefinitely. There could be no new infections and no deaths for a month, but the measures will stay in place “just to be on the safe side” (especially if Professor Whitty has any say in the matter). This country has now got itself into a position where it has no escape plan. It doesn’t know what it is aiming at (other than zero infections and deaths); it doesn’t know what it’s prepared to tolerate as “safe” levels of spread; it continues to scare its population into believing they will die if they step out of the front door (whilst giving them a tenor for a half price Nandos); its senior police officers encourage vigilantism in association with its ridiculous regulations. I cannot do much about them continuing to trash the economy. But I can do my bit by exploiting any opportunity I find to avoid complying with their increasingly bizarre regulations.
The law is that you must wear one unless you are either exempt (by way of age, or you’re working in the shop, etc.) or you have a “reasonable excuse”.
//…and even if you hold that the evidence for their efficacy is tenuous I just don't see why it could be so offensive to just put a mask on when you need to. It's a mild inconvenience//
It’s not a mild inconvenience, it’s a considerable inconvenience. If you tried to do some shopping using public transport and then go for a coffee or breakfast, then a bit more shopping you'd understand. But that’s not the reason for my objection. I’m really not concerned about the benefits to others because the evidence that they prevent spread is about as weighty as that showing they do not and I really cannot be bothered to argue the matter, especially when infection rates are extremely low as they are at present. But wearing one considerably increases (albeit from negligible to almost negligible) the risk of infection to me. Not something I am prepared to tolerate.
Like others, I believe this measure will last probably indefinitely. There could be no new infections and no deaths for a month, but the measures will stay in place “just to be on the safe side” (especially if Professor Whitty has any say in the matter). This country has now got itself into a position where it has no escape plan. It doesn’t know what it is aiming at (other than zero infections and deaths); it doesn’t know what it’s prepared to tolerate as “safe” levels of spread; it continues to scare its population into believing they will die if they step out of the front door (whilst giving them a tenor for a half price Nandos); its senior police officers encourage vigilantism in association with its ridiculous regulations. I cannot do much about them continuing to trash the economy. But I can do my bit by exploiting any opportunity I find to avoid complying with their increasingly bizarre regulations.
//...if wearing face coverings has a social effect of reminding people of the situation that we are in and that we all need to be careful, then I think that making it mandatory in certain situations is right.//
Then why not make it mandatory for us all to wear a bright yellow badge saying "Watch out! There's a virus about!"? Just as effective in that aim, no need to worry about exemptions (even children can don one), probably as effective in preventing spread and equally ridiculous. The upside is no increased risk to the wearer (apart from perhaps stabbing yourself with the pin as you put it on).
Then why not make it mandatory for us all to wear a bright yellow badge saying "Watch out! There's a virus about!"? Just as effective in that aim, no need to worry about exemptions (even children can don one), probably as effective in preventing spread and equally ridiculous. The upside is no increased risk to the wearer (apart from perhaps stabbing yourself with the pin as you put it on).
And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!
- Mel Gibson, Braveheart
And the answer in this case is ... yep, more than happy!
- Mel Gibson, Braveheart
And the answer in this case is ... yep, more than happy!
// Then why not make it mandatory for us all to wear a bright yellow badge saying "Watch out! There's a virus about!"? Just as effective ....//
er because not every ritual ( action with significance more than the action itself ) will induce the actions ( social distancing ) we want
I have asked Musheh for a reading list for rituals in medicine, but I wait on ....
just as NJ never asks let alone in public - I am tired of the red robe ( judgy civil or the purple robe ( judgy criminal ) in court and all that shouting - be upstanding = = =
I know ! it was on AB this morning so it must be true! - I will wear a bikini with some rather nice boxers ( shorts not men)
and theusher will shout
Hi Judgy - are you pleased to see us all !
I know for a fact he had never said that
and mushie if you hvae a rdg list on ritual in medicine I wd still be grateful
er because not every ritual ( action with significance more than the action itself ) will induce the actions ( social distancing ) we want
I have asked Musheh for a reading list for rituals in medicine, but I wait on ....
just as NJ never asks let alone in public - I am tired of the red robe ( judgy civil or the purple robe ( judgy criminal ) in court and all that shouting - be upstanding = = =
I know ! it was on AB this morning so it must be true! - I will wear a bikini with some rather nice boxers ( shorts not men)
and theusher will shout
Hi Judgy - are you pleased to see us all !
I know for a fact he had never said that
and mushie if you hvae a rdg list on ritual in medicine I wd still be grateful
Thanks all for your contributions, much appreciated.
As usual, thoughtful and balanced contributions from NewJudge.
Personally, I am inclined to move towards allowing the virus to become assimilated into our culture in the same way that flu has been.
The government seems to be to be overly cautious in its approach to this virus.
It is nasty, but it's not the Black Death, and infection is not a death sentence.
We need to continue to protect the elderly and vulnerable, but the average society can assimilate this virus quite easily, especially with the current progress in vaccination.
I hope we can drop the wearing of masks - it appears to be cosmetic rather than genuinely helpful - a government saying "Look, we are doing things to help …" when actually the help is negligible at best.
My view is, this is a virus, you don't have a choice about its presence, you have a choice about how you deal with it, and assimilate its existence into your life.
The choice would be to take a sensible reasoned approach, which is what we need, or knee-jerk supposed 'lockdowns' which are simply being ignored because the public has had enough and wants its life back.
I believe mask wearing should be a choice, but given the dubious actual effects, it should not be compulsory.
As usual, thoughtful and balanced contributions from NewJudge.
Personally, I am inclined to move towards allowing the virus to become assimilated into our culture in the same way that flu has been.
The government seems to be to be overly cautious in its approach to this virus.
It is nasty, but it's not the Black Death, and infection is not a death sentence.
We need to continue to protect the elderly and vulnerable, but the average society can assimilate this virus quite easily, especially with the current progress in vaccination.
I hope we can drop the wearing of masks - it appears to be cosmetic rather than genuinely helpful - a government saying "Look, we are doing things to help …" when actually the help is negligible at best.
My view is, this is a virus, you don't have a choice about its presence, you have a choice about how you deal with it, and assimilate its existence into your life.
The choice would be to take a sensible reasoned approach, which is what we need, or knee-jerk supposed 'lockdowns' which are simply being ignored because the public has had enough and wants its life back.
I believe mask wearing should be a choice, but given the dubious actual effects, it should not be compulsory.
> ellipsis does that mean you woldnt or you wouldnt
Sorry for being unclear, PP!
It means if I'm dying in my bed, many years from now, having survived this pandemic, I won't feel a loss that at some point many years before I'd traded a bit of freedom when asked to by my fairly elected government in order that (in their opinion) I and others would stand a better chance of survival.
Much like most naturists, who would love the freedom (FREEDOM!) to walk around naked, accept the fact that the law insists that they should wear clothes for the benefit of others.
Sorry for being unclear, PP!
It means if I'm dying in my bed, many years from now, having survived this pandemic, I won't feel a loss that at some point many years before I'd traded a bit of freedom when asked to by my fairly elected government in order that (in their opinion) I and others would stand a better chance of survival.
Much like most naturists, who would love the freedom (FREEDOM!) to walk around naked, accept the fact that the law insists that they should wear clothes for the benefit of others.
if it's a legal requirement in some situations then clearly the "right" not to wear one has been taken away. Personally I only wear one when mandated or specifically requested, I always have one in my pocket these days. I tend to be in the camp that thinks it's futile but I play along so as not to alarm the "believers"!
//I always have one in my pocket these days. I tend to be in the camp that thinks it's futile but I play along so as not to alarm the "believers"!//
What else do you keep in your pocket, SB? Keys? Wallet? Bit of loose change? Credit card or bus pass that has been placed against a machine that many others have used? How clean are your hands when you take your mask out of your pocket and put it on? Ditto when you take it off (and presumably put it back into your pocket)? You may not alarm the believers, but you may be harming yourself, or at least placing yourself at an increased risk of doing so.
//How do you know they're not saving lives (masks / facecoverings that is)?//
I don’t. I don’t know that they are, either (and nor, as far as I can tell, does anybody else). But I do know of the increased risk to me by wearing one.
What else do you keep in your pocket, SB? Keys? Wallet? Bit of loose change? Credit card or bus pass that has been placed against a machine that many others have used? How clean are your hands when you take your mask out of your pocket and put it on? Ditto when you take it off (and presumably put it back into your pocket)? You may not alarm the believers, but you may be harming yourself, or at least placing yourself at an increased risk of doing so.
//How do you know they're not saving lives (masks / facecoverings that is)?//
I don’t. I don’t know that they are, either (and nor, as far as I can tell, does anybody else). But I do know of the increased risk to me by wearing one.
Surgeons have been wearing face masks for a century (if not longer) to reduce the spread of airborne infection.
It acts as a barrier, reducing the wearer’s breath from being projected very far. It is in droplets in the breath of people with covid, where the virus leaves its host, and spreads to another body.
The fact that your glasses steam up means the mask is capturing the moisture in your breath and landing on the glass, and it is not being propelled about the room.
As far as stopping you breathing in a virus, a mask will be more effective than no mask, because it is a physical barrier. Even if it is only 30% effective, that is better than nothing.
It acts as a barrier, reducing the wearer’s breath from being projected very far. It is in droplets in the breath of people with covid, where the virus leaves its host, and spreads to another body.
The fact that your glasses steam up means the mask is capturing the moisture in your breath and landing on the glass, and it is not being propelled about the room.
As far as stopping you breathing in a virus, a mask will be more effective than no mask, because it is a physical barrier. Even if it is only 30% effective, that is better than nothing.
//Surgeons have been wearing face masks for a century (if not longer) to reduce the spread of airborne infection.//
Indeed they have. They wear purpose made masks and are trained (and disciplined) in their fitting and use.
//..what are you suggesting in your paragraph about the contents of my pockets? Like everyone else I have keys wallet etc and latterly a mask.//
So, you put this piece of cloth in your pocket, along with items that you presumably handle whilst you are out and about. Even if you don't use them, you probably touch them whilst they are in your pocket with the hands that have touched everything else (door handles, furniture, cutlery and crockery if you've been in a pub or restaurant, bus seats, tins of beans in Tesco's etc. Everything, in fact).Then, you place this cloth that has been tumbling around with all these items, close up in front of your nose and mouth. Now do you see what I'm suggesting?
//As far as stopping you breathing in a virus, a mask will be more effective than no mask,//
I think it is common ground that an "amateur" face covering provides no protection whatsoever for the wearer.
Indeed they have. They wear purpose made masks and are trained (and disciplined) in their fitting and use.
//..what are you suggesting in your paragraph about the contents of my pockets? Like everyone else I have keys wallet etc and latterly a mask.//
So, you put this piece of cloth in your pocket, along with items that you presumably handle whilst you are out and about. Even if you don't use them, you probably touch them whilst they are in your pocket with the hands that have touched everything else (door handles, furniture, cutlery and crockery if you've been in a pub or restaurant, bus seats, tins of beans in Tesco's etc. Everything, in fact).Then, you place this cloth that has been tumbling around with all these items, close up in front of your nose and mouth. Now do you see what I'm suggesting?
//As far as stopping you breathing in a virus, a mask will be more effective than no mask,//
I think it is common ground that an "amateur" face covering provides no protection whatsoever for the wearer.
