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Is This The Way To Control The Virus?
In a question yesterday, it was suggested that the UK could learn lessons from three Asian countries when trying to control the virus. One of them was China. So is this the way to go? Who would like to see this put into practice:
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Answers
As I have said on many threads the problem is that we are a libertarian democracy and simply do not have open to us the necessary draconian measures that one party states like China have. The much maligned Track and Trace would work if backed up by brutal enforcement measures. At the mere mention of T&T we get bleating "I haven't got a smart phone.. etc" and no...
09:48 Wed 20th Jan 2021
//There were examples discussed other than china though weren't there New Judge... but we'll ignore those.//
Yes there were. It’s a little off topic as I was interested in what people thought about tying miscreants to trees (wherever it took place). But in Vietnam, for example, they ran (and probably still run) large “quarantine camps” where those suspected of infection are interred for a spell under armed guard. New Zealand’s total population is about half that of London (with ten sheep for every person). They have just two international airports worthy of the term and they closed their borders entirely upon the outbreak (destroying their tourist industry possibly irrevocably in the process). I know someone who lives in NZ and she had to visit England during last year to bury her father. Upon her return (which was difficult, to say the least, to arrange) she was taken directly from the tarmac into a waiting coach and installed in a hotel where she was confined to her room for two weeks, again under guard. Do you suggest we can do any of that here? We cannot even confine those who arrive in rubber boats, many of whom it now seems have tested positive. Australia? That country has 100 times fewer people per square mile than the UK and (like NZ) comparing anything that happens there with what happens here is pointless.
//If anything they’d be more likely to overstate, as it gives a good excuse to control people, as we’ve seen//
China has never needed excuses to control its people. It’s simply what it does.
//“It works there so it’ll work here”//
That’s not what I’m suggesting, Ikky. I’m simply throwing up an “Aunt Sally”. Many contributors here believe far more severe measures should be taken against (what they perceive to be) lockdown offenders. I’ve pointed out once or twice exactly what the law allows and expressed my concern that the police are exceeding their powers on quite a number of occasions. If you allow the police to impose what they believe to be the law by dishing out summary justice you might end up with events such as the one I described. But that couldn't possibly happen here, could it?
Yes there were. It’s a little off topic as I was interested in what people thought about tying miscreants to trees (wherever it took place). But in Vietnam, for example, they ran (and probably still run) large “quarantine camps” where those suspected of infection are interred for a spell under armed guard. New Zealand’s total population is about half that of London (with ten sheep for every person). They have just two international airports worthy of the term and they closed their borders entirely upon the outbreak (destroying their tourist industry possibly irrevocably in the process). I know someone who lives in NZ and she had to visit England during last year to bury her father. Upon her return (which was difficult, to say the least, to arrange) she was taken directly from the tarmac into a waiting coach and installed in a hotel where she was confined to her room for two weeks, again under guard. Do you suggest we can do any of that here? We cannot even confine those who arrive in rubber boats, many of whom it now seems have tested positive. Australia? That country has 100 times fewer people per square mile than the UK and (like NZ) comparing anything that happens there with what happens here is pointless.
//If anything they’d be more likely to overstate, as it gives a good excuse to control people, as we’ve seen//
China has never needed excuses to control its people. It’s simply what it does.
//“It works there so it’ll work here”//
That’s not what I’m suggesting, Ikky. I’m simply throwing up an “Aunt Sally”. Many contributors here believe far more severe measures should be taken against (what they perceive to be) lockdown offenders. I’ve pointed out once or twice exactly what the law allows and expressed my concern that the police are exceeding their powers on quite a number of occasions. If you allow the police to impose what they believe to be the law by dishing out summary justice you might end up with events such as the one I described. But that couldn't possibly happen here, could it?
// Australia? That country has 100 times fewer people per square mile than the UK and (like NZ) comparing anything that happens there with what happens here is pointless. //
It's not a like-for-like comparison, but average density is misleading when there's a huge distribution. Australia still has fairly large cities -- indeed, it has more cities with populations of a million or more than we do in the UK -- and the fact that Covid hasn't taken a significant toll there is still something the Australian people can celebrate and congratulate themselves for.
It's not a like-for-like comparison, but average density is misleading when there's a huge distribution. Australia still has fairly large cities -- indeed, it has more cities with populations of a million or more than we do in the UK -- and the fact that Covid hasn't taken a significant toll there is still something the Australian people can celebrate and congratulate themselves for.
I may be wrong, but I don't think the investigators are there to investigate "wrongdoing"
These are the ones originally banned from entering the country.
I thought it was to investigate the long term effects of the virus on the first people to catch it.
And they may have some worrying conclusions there.
These are the ones originally banned from entering the country.
I thought it was to investigate the long term effects of the virus on the first people to catch it.
And they may have some worrying conclusions there.
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Unless every country is using the same definition of a Covid death then international comparisons are flawed. The only valid comparison is excess deaths, ie the number of deaths for any reason compared to the average for the same period in preceding years.
This gives you a true picture of the effect the pandemic is having on a country.
Nothing that China says can be trusted.
This gives you a true picture of the effect the pandemic is having on a country.
Nothing that China says can be trusted.
//It's not a like-for-like comparison,//
Which is exactly the point I was making when asked to comment on why Australia had done so well. If the UK had just 8 people per sq mile instead of almost 800 I’m sure our results would have been very different.
//…and the fact that Covid hasn't taken a significant toll there is still something the Australian people can celebrate and congratulate themselves for.//
Indeed they can. Though I imagine it's more down to geography and demographics than anything their government has done.
Which is exactly the point I was making when asked to comment on why Australia had done so well. If the UK had just 8 people per sq mile instead of almost 800 I’m sure our results would have been very different.
//…and the fact that Covid hasn't taken a significant toll there is still something the Australian people can celebrate and congratulate themselves for.//
Indeed they can. Though I imagine it's more down to geography and demographics than anything their government has done.
You're making the same mistake. Most of Australia is empty of people, so it's utterly misleading to use that to argue that the population is somehow too spread out for Covid to have spread far, at least as compared to the UK. It's the mistake, in other words, of using only the average density and not paying any attention to the huge variation.
there were other countries discussed NJ ....
a cruel thinly veiled allusion to the support NJ blindly gave to the swedish solution
(oh why oh why cant we follow the swedish example, let it all hang out and if necessary let'em all DDDDIIIIIEEEEE!?) he wd trill plaintively day after day ....
most unjust criticism I say
you know the one the King of Sweden said: hey we got it wrong this time boys
a cruel thinly veiled allusion to the support NJ blindly gave to the swedish solution
(oh why oh why cant we follow the swedish example, let it all hang out and if necessary let'em all DDDDIIIIIEEEEE!?) he wd trill plaintively day after day ....
most unjust criticism I say
you know the one the King of Sweden said: hey we got it wrong this time boys
//...so it's utterly misleading to use that to argue that the population is somehow too spread out for Covid to have spread far,...//
I'm doing nothing of the sort, Jim. I mention the average population density as only one of many reasons why a comparison between the UK and Australia is pointless. They may have more cities of more than 1m population than the UK. Actually I would dispute that because in the UK there are many "conurbations" of more than 1m people even though the principle city or cities may have less, e.g. Greater Manchester; Birmingham/Wolverhampton; Leeds/Bradford; Glasgow; Southampton/Portsmouth. But it doesn't matter. There is simply no point in trying to compare the two countries.
I'm doing nothing of the sort, Jim. I mention the average population density as only one of many reasons why a comparison between the UK and Australia is pointless. They may have more cities of more than 1m population than the UK. Actually I would dispute that because in the UK there are many "conurbations" of more than 1m people even though the principle city or cities may have less, e.g. Greater Manchester; Birmingham/Wolverhampton; Leeds/Bradford; Glasgow; Southampton/Portsmouth. But it doesn't matter. There is simply no point in trying to compare the two countries.
"there were other countries discussed NJ .... " PP
Democracies, like the UK- Taiwan and South Korea - but perhaps they are not as much 'libertarian democracies' as the UK.
The UK has almost a third more dead than Sweden; it is obvious factors like population densities, proximities and people movements have effects in spread, which is probably why China(and others) have mandated such restrictions.
This lax game can end badly.
Democracies, like the UK- Taiwan and South Korea - but perhaps they are not as much 'libertarian democracies' as the UK.
The UK has almost a third more dead than Sweden; it is obvious factors like population densities, proximities and people movements have effects in spread, which is probably why China(and others) have mandated such restrictions.
This lax game can end badly.
Draconian measures are not necessary, likely never are. One merely has to limit the velocity of the spread, not dream of stopping it altogether. A sensible rational balance of different goals can avoid being overwhelmed without any need to throw our, hopefully valued, principles down the pan, and change a belief in democracy into a cry for totalitarianism and it's consideration of zero value for the individual.
//This lax game can end badly.//
Are you seriously suggesting that the restrictions currently imposed in the UK are "lax"? I'm not talking about compared to other countries and I'm not talking about the lack of enforcement, but the measures themselves. Large parts of the economy are closed; people must have a "reasonable excuse" before leaving home or remaining outside of it; they can invite nobody into their home; they can meet only one person outside (and they cannot do that by appointment as a sole reason, they can only do so if they are out for another "legitimate" reason); they must not go to work if they can work from home; they cannot travel abroad; they must wear face coverings on public transport, in shops and many other indoor places; schools are closed (and likely to remains so until at least Easter.
What else would you like to see?
Are you seriously suggesting that the restrictions currently imposed in the UK are "lax"? I'm not talking about compared to other countries and I'm not talking about the lack of enforcement, but the measures themselves. Large parts of the economy are closed; people must have a "reasonable excuse" before leaving home or remaining outside of it; they can invite nobody into their home; they can meet only one person outside (and they cannot do that by appointment as a sole reason, they can only do so if they are out for another "legitimate" reason); they must not go to work if they can work from home; they cannot travel abroad; they must wear face coverings on public transport, in shops and many other indoor places; schools are closed (and likely to remains so until at least Easter.
What else would you like to see?
The restrictions from the beginning and until now have always been loose, inconsistent and have large flexible holes in them.
The restrictions are indeed 'lax' when compared to Taiwan, South Korea,(Australia NZ.....) which should be obvious as the dramatically lower death count shown previously in your own thread clearly show.
Schools never completely closed at all during this pandemic.
I do not like lockdown, but would prefer to block out ALL the light from my windows during this biological blitz.
The restrictions are indeed 'lax' when compared to Taiwan, South Korea,(Australia NZ.....) which should be obvious as the dramatically lower death count shown previously in your own thread clearly show.
Schools never completely closed at all during this pandemic.
I do not like lockdown, but would prefer to block out ALL the light from my windows during this biological blitz.
