News1 min ago
Sarah Everard's Murderer
The current law in England and Wales states that the murder of a police (or prison) officer in the course of duty is a factor indicating a murder of ‘particularly high seriousness’, which must attract a minimum sentence of 30 years.
This is (thankfully) extremely rare, but if found guilty should the same apply to police / prison officers who murder civilians?
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This is (thankfully) extremely rare, but if found guilty should the same apply to police / prison officers who murder civilians?
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pixie - // Bronson... sorry for the autocorrect, Richard... //
I don;t beleive Charles Bronson is in prison for murder.
If memory serves, he was handed a relatively short sentence, but he has made it his life's work to extend it periodically because of his complete inability to stop visiting violence on prison officers and his fellow inmates.
I don;t beleive Charles Bronson is in prison for murder.
If memory serves, he was handed a relatively short sentence, but he has made it his life's work to extend it periodically because of his complete inability to stop visiting violence on prison officers and his fellow inmates.
Emotion "should " be irrelevant. But, is the basis of every law there is. We are not short of humans, rationally, but we don't accept murder. These are emotional, not rational decisions.
Locking a murderer, or dangerous criminal up... gives no closure to anybody, including them. It really is lifelong revenge and punishment...
I'm actually fairly sure, from reading the thread- that the majority of ABers, actually want the same thing... justice, safety for themselves and others, closure.
Nobody seems to want revenge or punishment, particularly. The only dissention, is the method.
Personally, in some cases, I think euthanasia is kinder and more civilised, than decades of punishment in a cell.
Locking a murderer, or dangerous criminal up... gives no closure to anybody, including them. It really is lifelong revenge and punishment...
I'm actually fairly sure, from reading the thread- that the majority of ABers, actually want the same thing... justice, safety for themselves and others, closure.
Nobody seems to want revenge or punishment, particularly. The only dissention, is the method.
Personally, in some cases, I think euthanasia is kinder and more civilised, than decades of punishment in a cell.
pixie - // Locking a murderer, or dangerous criminal up... gives no closure to anybody, including them. //
I'm not at all sure that 'closure' is the object of the exercise!!
// It really is lifelong revenge and punishment... //
I believe that is a matter of perception - one person sees revenge and punishment, another person sees safety for society.
The action is the same, just the explanations and motivations vary.
Sometimes two results can exist in harmony, and everyone wins, other times one wins, the other loses, and sometimes, both lose.
Life's complicated isn't it!!
I'm not at all sure that 'closure' is the object of the exercise!!
// It really is lifelong revenge and punishment... //
I believe that is a matter of perception - one person sees revenge and punishment, another person sees safety for society.
The action is the same, just the explanations and motivations vary.
Sometimes two results can exist in harmony, and everyone wins, other times one wins, the other loses, and sometimes, both lose.
Life's complicated isn't it!!
//I don't think "victim impact statements" do have any place. Not only is that going to be emotional, but also depends on literacy.//
Then why do you suppose the right to make one and have it put before the court is embedded in the Victims' Charter, pixie? Do you think the victim should have no input to the court sentencing process?
If you examine the sentencing guidelines for almost any offence, you will find there is a very wide range of suggested sentences. The sentence eventually handed down depends on multitude of factors, one of which is the effect on the victim. How else is the court to discover what that effect was unless it hears from the victim? Adequate support is available to victims if they have difficulty completing their impact statements so illiteracy of similar issues should not be a problem.
Then why do you suppose the right to make one and have it put before the court is embedded in the Victims' Charter, pixie? Do you think the victim should have no input to the court sentencing process?
If you examine the sentencing guidelines for almost any offence, you will find there is a very wide range of suggested sentences. The sentence eventually handed down depends on multitude of factors, one of which is the effect on the victim. How else is the court to discover what that effect was unless it hears from the victim? Adequate support is available to victims if they have difficulty completing their impact statements so illiteracy of similar issues should not be a problem.
It is, andy- and honestly, I can see both points of view here.
Someone in prison forever... torturous for them, no closure or peace for victims or relatives.
Peaceful death, done and sorted.
I have never needed revenge... just, safety for everyone... and certainly never wanted anyone to have an awful life for decades... i would have to live with that too.
Someone in prison forever... torturous for them, no closure or peace for victims or relatives.
Peaceful death, done and sorted.
I have never needed revenge... just, safety for everyone... and certainly never wanted anyone to have an awful life for decades... i would have to live with that too.
The death penalty is always called for in similar cases, me being one of them. Now I've never been in prison, or even visited one, so its a blind view I have. He goes to prison, he will die there according to what I read and believe. However, he will live until such time, in a home provided by us, he will be kept fit and healthy, if he needs a doctor or hospital treatment, he will get that quicker than any of us are getting at this moment, more than likely the same day/week.
He will be fed reasonably well, he will have no money worries, no heating bill to find, council tax, and no job hunting to do. Well you get my meaning so I won't insult you by going on.
He will enjoy up to a point his birthday and Christmas, and no doubt see his family/friends, unless they have the sense to do otherwise. Is this really justice? well sadly yes under British law. Would it be mine or many others? a big fat know.
He will be fed reasonably well, he will have no money worries, no heating bill to find, council tax, and no job hunting to do. Well you get my meaning so I won't insult you by going on.
He will enjoy up to a point his birthday and Christmas, and no doubt see his family/friends, unless they have the sense to do otherwise. Is this really justice? well sadly yes under British law. Would it be mine or many others? a big fat know.
//Locking a murderer, or dangerous criminal up... gives no closure to anybody, including them.//
If someone you loved were killed, and the killer was never found - you'd have no closure.
If a suspect were arrested, tried and convicted, you'd have closure.
Do you *really* for need them to be executed to have closure?
If someone you loved were killed, and the killer was never found - you'd have no closure.
If a suspect were arrested, tried and convicted, you'd have closure.
Do you *really* for need them to be executed to have closure?
teacake44
//However, he will live until such time, in a home provided by us, he will be kept fit and healthy, if he needs a doctor or hospital treatment, he will get that quicker than any of us are getting at this moment, more than likely the same day/week.
He will be fed reasonably well, he will have no money worries, no heating bill to find, council tax, and no job hunting to do. Well you get my meaning so I won't insult you by going on.
He will enjoy up to a point his birthday and Christmas, and no doubt see his family/friends, unless they have the sense to do otherwise. Is this really justice? well sadly yes under British law. Would it be mine or many others? a big fat know.//
That so seriously untrue.
I finished a booked called 'A Bit of a Stretch' last month which is a real eye-opener. Prison isn't like anything I've ever seen in the papers...it's *horrible*. You don't live. You exist.
I also read Strangeways by Neil Samworth (a former prison officer).
Honestly I can't tell you how it's put my off the idea of murder.
//However, he will live until such time, in a home provided by us, he will be kept fit and healthy, if he needs a doctor or hospital treatment, he will get that quicker than any of us are getting at this moment, more than likely the same day/week.
He will be fed reasonably well, he will have no money worries, no heating bill to find, council tax, and no job hunting to do. Well you get my meaning so I won't insult you by going on.
He will enjoy up to a point his birthday and Christmas, and no doubt see his family/friends, unless they have the sense to do otherwise. Is this really justice? well sadly yes under British law. Would it be mine or many others? a big fat know.//
That so seriously untrue.
I finished a booked called 'A Bit of a Stretch' last month which is a real eye-opener. Prison isn't like anything I've ever seen in the papers...it's *horrible*. You don't live. You exist.
I also read Strangeways by Neil Samworth (a former prison officer).
Honestly I can't tell you how it's put my off the idea of murder.
pixie - // Out of interest, Andy... if the main object isn't closure- what is it? //
I have to confess here, I think the notion of 'closure' is a meaningless psychobabble phrase imported from America.
I don't need to tell anyone on here how life and emotions are complicated, and that means that rarely can neat lines be drawn under things and situations placed in boxes in the mind, neatly labeled and put away for ever.
That means that the concept of 'closure' becomes meaningless because things dont get 'closed' they get lived with, assimilated, woven into our lives.
If they are bad things, hopefully the passage of time means that their regular and damaging impact reduces, but rarely, if ever, does it actually go away completely, or 'close'.
In situations like this, even if a murderer was executed, I doubt it provides even the illusion of 'closure' for those involved, never mind that reality.
I have to confess here, I think the notion of 'closure' is a meaningless psychobabble phrase imported from America.
I don't need to tell anyone on here how life and emotions are complicated, and that means that rarely can neat lines be drawn under things and situations placed in boxes in the mind, neatly labeled and put away for ever.
That means that the concept of 'closure' becomes meaningless because things dont get 'closed' they get lived with, assimilated, woven into our lives.
If they are bad things, hopefully the passage of time means that their regular and damaging impact reduces, but rarely, if ever, does it actually go away completely, or 'close'.
In situations like this, even if a murderer was executed, I doubt it provides even the illusion of 'closure' for those involved, never mind that reality.
teacake - // However, he will live until such time, in a home provided by us, he will be kept fit and healthy, if he needs a doctor or hospital treatment, he will get that quicker than any of us are getting at this moment, more than likely the same day/week.
He will be fed reasonably well, he will have no money worries, no heating bill to find, council tax, and no job hunting to do. Well you get my meaning so I won't insult you by going on.
He will enjoy up to a point his birthday and Christmas, and no doubt see his family/friends, unless they have the sense to do otherwise. //
I know that this is a popular perception of prison, but i also believe it to be manifestly false.
The primary aspect of prison, which tends to be forgotten, maybe because it is so obvious, is the absence of freedom.
Freedom of basic choices, but mst importantly, absence of liberty, and I don't think that can ever be underestimated in terms of the ongoing increasing debilitating effect it has on the soul.
I remember Ronnie Kray being asked about the worse aspect of prison, and he replied, The noise, it's never ever silent in here ... and I for one would find that competely impossible to live with.
He will be fed reasonably well, he will have no money worries, no heating bill to find, council tax, and no job hunting to do. Well you get my meaning so I won't insult you by going on.
He will enjoy up to a point his birthday and Christmas, and no doubt see his family/friends, unless they have the sense to do otherwise. //
I know that this is a popular perception of prison, but i also believe it to be manifestly false.
The primary aspect of prison, which tends to be forgotten, maybe because it is so obvious, is the absence of freedom.
Freedom of basic choices, but mst importantly, absence of liberty, and I don't think that can ever be underestimated in terms of the ongoing increasing debilitating effect it has on the soul.
I remember Ronnie Kray being asked about the worse aspect of prison, and he replied, The noise, it's never ever silent in here ... and I for one would find that competely impossible to live with.
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