Sarah Everard's Murderer

[sp1814]

The current law in England and Wales states that the murder of a police (or prison) officer in the course of duty is a factor indicating a murder of ‘particularly high seriousness’, which must attract a minimum sentence of 30 years.

This is (thankfully) extremely rare, but if found guilty should the same apply to police / prison officers who murder civilians?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/29/sarah-everard-family-haunted-by-the-horror-of-daughters-murder

[pixie374]

It sounds like 'psychobabble', Andy, and maybe isn't the best word to use- even if accurate.
I more meant- a feeling of relaxation, justice, safety, a real feeling of being able to move on.
I'm sure you agree... that prison or not, for as long as a prisoner is alive- there is always an implied threat of returning. Finding out they had passed away, is the only real end to it.

[pixie374]

//Freedom of basic choices, but mst importantly, absence of liberty, and I don't think that can ever be underestimated in terms of the ongoing increasing debilitating effect it has on the soul.

I remember Ronnie Kray being asked about the worse aspect of prison, and he replied, The noise, it's never ever silent in here ... and I for one would find that competely impossible to live with.//

Andy, but you also find this civilised and kind?

[Ellipsis]

Here's an idea. Maybe when they finally allow voluntary euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide in this country, which I do believe in, they'll allow prisoners who have been given a long sentence the option to choose death instead ...

[andy-hughes]

Pixie - // //Freedom of basic choices, but mst importantly, absence of liberty, and I don't think that can ever be underestimated in terms of the ongoing increasing debilitating effect it has on the soul.

I remember Ronnie Kray being asked about the worse aspect of prison, and he replied, The noise, it's never ever silent in here ... and I for one would find that competely impossible to live with.//

Andy, but you also find this civilised and kind? //

I don't believe I have ever referred to prison as either 'civilsed' or 'kind' since by definition is it neither.

Society has a choice about how to deal with its murderers.

It can execute them, which I believe is barbaric and reduces us to the level of the murderer.

Or it can incarcerate them, which provides a level of safety for society as a whole, with attendent decions about any release, if considered appropriate.

Now I believe that incarceration is horrible, but it is the only viable alternative to execution, and as such, it is the option we are left with if we decided that execution is not the route we wish to take.

No I don't think prison is 'civilised' but I believe the thinking behind it is.

No I don't think prison is 'kind' but an element of punishment is not a bad thing, given the crime we are debating.

[Barmaid]

I have been inside a couple of Cat B prisons and an open prison. Without exception,they are not the holiday camps the press would have you believe. They (particularly the Cat Bs) are foul, noisy, stinking, hell holes - not that I have any sympathy for anyone incarcerated there. The rest of Couzens' life is going to be a living hell for him as an ex-copper. He can look forward to being locked up for 23 hours or so a day since he is likely to be a target. Do not mistake this as an expression of sympathy because it is not.

On another matter, it has been suggested that Couzens may be being looked at for other attacks and murders since his level of accomplishment indicates he may have offended before. Given that he pleaded guilty in this case (although initially came out with a load of BS) if there are other victims there is a chance that he *may* cooperate. Clearly he cannot if he is dead.

I hope that Scott Walker who was recently sentenced to a minimum of 32 years for the murder of his step-daughter eventually reveals the location of her body.

[teacake44]

AH, I can't see anyone who commits such a crime can find anything debilitating, but I hope I'm very wrong. If he does, then I hope he hears the debilitating noises in his sleep of his victims screams.

[davebro]

Hindley & Brady were manipulative rissoles throughout there imprisonment & I'm sure most of us breathed a sigh of relief when they finally died.

[teacake44]

Best news and insight I've had for a long time barmaid. As I said in my post never been near a prison, its TV I see?????

[pixie374]

It took time, dave... andy, I'm honestly just surprised that you find lifelong incarceration, punishment, revenge, mental health torment.... more "civilised" than euthanasia.

[teacake44]

Lets just give him 10 years of torment, and promise him euthanasia on his 11th year, something for him to look forward too.

[pixie374]

//Society has a choice about how to deal with its murderers.

It can execute them, which I believe is barbaric and reduces us to the level of the murderer.
//

How? You seem to be comparing an individual, using their power, to murder (and whatever else) a particular victim... with a country and a justice system, deciding those people are not safe here?

[andy-hughes]

pixie - // It took time, dave... andy, I'm honestly just surprised that you find lifelong incarceration, punishment, revenge, mental health torment.... more "civilised" than euthanasia. //

In my post at 15.37, I specifically said that I don't beleive that prison is 'civilised'.

If you are bringing euthanasia into the argument, which is a new element, and clearly changes the perameters, I would suggest that euthanasia is not 'civilised' either.

[sp1814]

What Barmaid wrote chines with what I read (or rather listened to - they were audiobooks).

Up until a few weeks ago I *genuinely* believed prison to be the X-Box filled holiday camps we see in the papers.

The reality is shockingly different.

[andy-hughes]

pixie - // //Society has a choice about how to deal with its murderers.

It can execute them, which I believe is barbaric and reduces us to the level of the murderer.
//

How? You seem to be comparing an individual, using their power, to murder (and whatever else) a particular victim... with a country and a justice system, deciding those people are not safe here? //

The comparison is this - on the one hand an individual takes the life of another person, and the circumatances and situations are unique to every single case, but the fact remains, an individual takes the life of another person, that is murder.

On the other hand, an individual takes the life of another person, and the circumstances are exactly the same - it is premeditated, discussed, decided and put into action.

But the fact remains that an individual takes the life of another person.

Calling it execution, rather than murder, is simply a matter of semantics.

Someone has to be tasked with taking the life of someone else.

Can we honestly say that in 2021, we have not moved on from the time when we thought this was an acceptable way to behave?

I think we have.

[pixie374]

Andy, the death penalty/ euthanasia, whatever you want to call it, has been in the thread for many posts now.

[pixie374]

Since the first post ;-)

[douglas9401]

"Up until a few weeks ago I *genuinely* believed prison to be the X-Box filled holiday camps we see in the papers.

The reality is shockingly different."

Well that's a good thing then.

[naomi24]

I think putting down dangerous dogs is an acceptable way to behave. In fact humans who commit crimes such as the creature under discussion has committed is worse than a dangerous dog because, unlike the dog, he possesses the power of reason and is fully aware of the difference between right and wrong. I would not hesitate to dispense with him.

[pixie374]

Andy... I think we have moved on from using mental torture, imprisonment, for humans. We at least know now, that physical punishment, is often less harmful than mental. And also, that prison, (and 3 more so for females), does more harm than help.
We really need to decide if our purpose is revenge, punishment, cruelty.... or not. And move forwards.

[andy-hughes]

pixie - // Andy, the death penalty/ euthanasia, whatever you want to call it, has been in the thread for many posts now. //

I don't regard the death penalty and euthanasia as the same thing, which is why I have not referred to euthanasia until my post responding to your mention of it.

To my mind the two are as separate as apples and oranges.