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Lia Thomas - Again. Are Sports Bodies Tying Themselves In Knots In Not Wanting To Offend The Tg Minority?
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NCAA Ranking as a man - 554th.
NCAA Ranking as a 'woman' - 1st.
'She' beat Emma Weyant, a silver medalist in Tokyo, by 1.75 seconds, and if the report I read at the weekend is true, 'she' appeared to be holding-back, presumably to avoid the gap being even greater as it would make the absurdity of the situation even more absurd.
The gold in Tokyo was won by 0.68 seconds ahead of Weyant, so if Thomas had gone to the Olympics, 'she' would most likely be the Olympic champion.
Lia Thomas is taking the place of a proper woman.
Sharon Davis has commented:
"She has greater upper-body strength and significantly more muscle mass than a woman of the same weight and height. She has a greater lung capacity, better VO2 uptake, different bone density, she is nearly 6ft 4in tall and has large hands and feet that act like paddles."
And a teammate has commented:
"...that they feel ‘awkward’ sharing a locker room with her because ‘Lia still has male body parts [by which I take they mean a penis] and is still attracted to women".
Why are sporting bodies allowing this absurdity to continue at the expense of women athletes?
NCAA Ranking as a man - 554th.
NCAA Ranking as a 'woman' - 1st.
'She' beat Emma Weyant, a silver medalist in Tokyo, by 1.75 seconds, and if the report I read at the weekend is true, 'she' appeared to be holding-back, presumably to avoid the gap being even greater as it would make the absurdity of the situation even more absurd.
The gold in Tokyo was won by 0.68 seconds ahead of Weyant, so if Thomas had gone to the Olympics, 'she' would most likely be the Olympic champion.
Lia Thomas is taking the place of a proper woman.
Sharon Davis has commented:
"She has greater upper-body strength and significantly more muscle mass than a woman of the same weight and height. She has a greater lung capacity, better VO2 uptake, different bone density, she is nearly 6ft 4in tall and has large hands and feet that act like paddles."
And a teammate has commented:
"...that they feel ‘awkward’ sharing a locker room with her because ‘Lia still has male body parts [by which I take they mean a penis] and is still attracted to women".
Why are sporting bodies allowing this absurdity to continue at the expense of women athletes?
Answers
I do not even know where to start with this. Naomi is doing brilliantly at stating that women are women (I am one myself)- that this can possibly be considered controversia
21:33 Wed 23rd Mar 2022
// You seem to be suggesting, Jim, that it's OK for men to participate in women's sport provided they are not too competitive. The problem with that is that if you open the door to men who are not too competitive, you also do so for those who are. The competitiveness (or otherwise) of the participants should not be a consideration. //
I'm holding back in expressing an opinion one way or the other. Rather, what I was pointing out was clearly relevant for context, especially because there have been several people making demonstrably false claims about the response of Thomas's rivals in the pool.
But that said, I don't agree that what you're saying -- in the sense that opening the door to those who aren't competitive also opens the door to those who would, presumably, crush the field -- is quite right. Of course, we could shut the door to all trans athletes, or specifically MTF ones, into sport, but we could also set clear thresholds or standards that ensure that nobody could "abuse" the transition process for the express purpose of dominating a sport, whilst still maintaining a general principle that the competition is fair. If it were demonstrated that this isn't possible, then fair enough, that should be an end to the matter: if, in order to preserve the integrity of women's sport, trans women needs must compete in a separate category, then so be it.
I'm holding back in expressing an opinion one way or the other. Rather, what I was pointing out was clearly relevant for context, especially because there have been several people making demonstrably false claims about the response of Thomas's rivals in the pool.
But that said, I don't agree that what you're saying -- in the sense that opening the door to those who aren't competitive also opens the door to those who would, presumably, crush the field -- is quite right. Of course, we could shut the door to all trans athletes, or specifically MTF ones, into sport, but we could also set clear thresholds or standards that ensure that nobody could "abuse" the transition process for the express purpose of dominating a sport, whilst still maintaining a general principle that the competition is fair. If it were demonstrated that this isn't possible, then fair enough, that should be an end to the matter: if, in order to preserve the integrity of women's sport, trans women needs must compete in a separate category, then so be it.
I wonder where it all has to stop? Will "they" start changing the genders of the deceased, to show how much "women" have achieved, because they are sure that most of them would have transitioned had they not been repressed by the male dominated authorities. Wilhelmina the Conquerer, Winifred Churchill, Bernadette Mongomery, Roberta Loise Stevenson.
"A woman can do anything that a man can do ... especially if she is born with a penis."
Bill Maher.
"A woman can do anything that a man can do ... especially if she is born with a penis."
Bill Maher.
TCL at 5.29pm
"She didn't win all the races she entered in the competition.
NCAA Championships
500yd prelims - 1st
500yd finals - 1st
200m prelims - 2nd
200m finals - 5th
100yd prelims - 4th
100yd finals - 8th"
That's not really relevant.
The relevant, and most telling statistic, is 'her' NCAA ranking as a man was 554th, and 'her' NCAA ranking as a 'woman' is 1st.
This makes 'her' at best an average male swimmer, but as a 'female' makes 'her' the best. It's cheating and it's unfair on the women athletes, and I think 'she' should be thoroughly ashamed of 'herself'.
Incidentally, Pixie picked up on the fact that I am referring to 'she' and 'her' rather than she and her. I do this because a couple of years ago I was posting on a thread about a man (who was clearly a man) identifying as a female, and was referring to him as he and him. The Editor addressed me directly in a post and said to me "She Deskdiary - it's really not that difficult".
I thought it was awful of the Editor to tell me how to think, and still do, so to avoid being 'called-out' again, I now make reference to 'she' and 'her' etc...
"She didn't win all the races she entered in the competition.
NCAA Championships
500yd prelims - 1st
500yd finals - 1st
200m prelims - 2nd
200m finals - 5th
100yd prelims - 4th
100yd finals - 8th"
That's not really relevant.
The relevant, and most telling statistic, is 'her' NCAA ranking as a man was 554th, and 'her' NCAA ranking as a 'woman' is 1st.
This makes 'her' at best an average male swimmer, but as a 'female' makes 'her' the best. It's cheating and it's unfair on the women athletes, and I think 'she' should be thoroughly ashamed of 'herself'.
Incidentally, Pixie picked up on the fact that I am referring to 'she' and 'her' rather than she and her. I do this because a couple of years ago I was posting on a thread about a man (who was clearly a man) identifying as a female, and was referring to him as he and him. The Editor addressed me directly in a post and said to me "She Deskdiary - it's really not that difficult".
I thought it was awful of the Editor to tell me how to think, and still do, so to avoid being 'called-out' again, I now make reference to 'she' and 'her' etc...
I think this illustrates the issue quite well:
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"During the last season in the NCAA, Lia Thomas competed in the men’s division, in 2018-19. There, she ranked 554th in the 200-yd freestyle, and she is now fifth in the event this year.
Furthermore, in the 500-yd freestyle, Thomas was 65th in the country. Now, she ranked first place in the event this year. Finally, in the 1650 freestyle, she is now eighth in the nation, as opposed to 32nd in the men’s division."
Her ranking has not improved as dramatically as some might have believed.
Furthermore, in the 500-yd freestyle, Thomas was 65th in the country. Now, she ranked first place in the event this year. Finally, in the 1650 freestyle, she is now eighth in the nation, as opposed to 32nd in the men’s division."
Her ranking has not improved as dramatically as some might have believed.
I'm not sure to what extent at this point it's a deliberate misunderstanding and to what extent it's just coming from an inability to view things from somebody else's perspective, but there is no "lie" in referring to Lia Thomas as "she". The point is that there's a different understanding as to what counts when defining pronouncs: do they refer to biological sex, or to gender identity? When I refer to Lia Thomas as "she", I'm meaning it in the second context; when you call Lia "he" you evidently mean it in the former context. That's your choice. But it's not a lie to think of pronouns in terms of gender identity. But this essential distinction has been pointed out multiple times, and at some point it becomes sheer bloody-mindedness to continue to ignore it. This also means that the repeated refrain that "men are not women" doesn't actually clarify anything. It's as true in my dictionary as it is in yours, but in order to have meaning we'd have to agree on what is essential when defining both terms.
There are two debates here, too, and they have become entangled. The first is whether trans people have a right to have their identity respected; the second is whether this right extends all the way to sport. I have no intention to die on the second hill: as I've explained above, transgender is a matter of social gender and not biology, whereas physical and competitive sports are evidently more to do with biology, so it stands to reason that trans people at the very least must meet certain stringent conditions before being able to compete, eg long-term hormone treatment.
But it's clear from the tone of this discussion that the second debate isn't seen as at all separate, and Lia Thomas's sense of her self is seen as a lie, an aberration, an affront, or even a direct assault on the very concept of womanhood. But, as I pointed out, many of her rivals in the pool don't see it in this way, and as I've pointed out previously, there are more people in the UK who are supportive of the statement that "trans women are women" than against it. Society is changing, towards being more accepting in general. Change is always difficult, and it's not surprising that those used to the older perspective are resistive to that change.
There are two debates here, too, and they have become entangled. The first is whether trans people have a right to have their identity respected; the second is whether this right extends all the way to sport. I have no intention to die on the second hill: as I've explained above, transgender is a matter of social gender and not biology, whereas physical and competitive sports are evidently more to do with biology, so it stands to reason that trans people at the very least must meet certain stringent conditions before being able to compete, eg long-term hormone treatment.
But it's clear from the tone of this discussion that the second debate isn't seen as at all separate, and Lia Thomas's sense of her self is seen as a lie, an aberration, an affront, or even a direct assault on the very concept of womanhood. But, as I pointed out, many of her rivals in the pool don't see it in this way, and as I've pointed out previously, there are more people in the UK who are supportive of the statement that "trans women are women" than against it. Society is changing, towards being more accepting in general. Change is always difficult, and it's not surprising that those used to the older perspective are resistive to that change.
tiggerblue10
Interesting question. Something I was thinking when I first saw this thread.
https:/
Interesting question. Something I was thinking when I first saw this thread.
https:/
//and Lia Thomas's sense of her self is seen as a lie, an aberration, an affront, or even a direct assault on the very concept of womanhood. //
No, that is your assumption to further your agenda.
He/she/they can assume any gender they wish but it is arrogant in the extreme to ride roughshod over people born as women. This applies to any women only area, changing rooms or safe spaces and hospital wards.
Of course, if someone has fully transitions then it is a different story - apart from the sport aspect.
No, that is your assumption to further your agenda.
He/she/they can assume any gender they wish but it is arrogant in the extreme to ride roughshod over people born as women. This applies to any women only area, changing rooms or safe spaces and hospital wards.
Of course, if someone has fully transitions then it is a different story - apart from the sport aspect.
//Her ranking has not improved as dramatically as some might have believed.//
What, from 554th to fifth and 65th to 1st?
I get what you say about the gender/sex issue, Jim. But you have to bear in mind that one is a matter of opinion and the other a matter of fact. If a fully able-bodied athlete decided that in his opinion he was not fully able bodied and wanted to compete alongside, say, those with a limb deficiency, he would be laughed at and sent on his way. So it is with this. This swimmer was born a male, went through puberty as a male and gained all the physical advantages that process gives to males. Popping a few hormone tablets now does not alter that fact and that is clearly evident from his physical attributes.
The problem with this debate is that people are being asked to believe the unbelievable. They are being asked to accept fiction as fact. If the problems this throws up were confined to sport it would be bad enough but not intractable. But it’s not confined to sport. As I illustrated earlier, a serious miscarriage of justice was almost perpetrated because NHS workers are compelled to accept opinion as fact. This even stretches so far that they are instructed to tell lies to the police investigating allegations of a very serious criminal offence (which, in the eyes of most women, is probably second only to murder – and some may say even worse). I don’t care what opinion people have of their gender as long as they don’t expect me to accept their opinion as fact. All the shouting and stamping of feet by the “trans” lobby will not alter my viewpoint. This is no joke and it’s about time the lunacy ended.
What, from 554th to fifth and 65th to 1st?
I get what you say about the gender/sex issue, Jim. But you have to bear in mind that one is a matter of opinion and the other a matter of fact. If a fully able-bodied athlete decided that in his opinion he was not fully able bodied and wanted to compete alongside, say, those with a limb deficiency, he would be laughed at and sent on his way. So it is with this. This swimmer was born a male, went through puberty as a male and gained all the physical advantages that process gives to males. Popping a few hormone tablets now does not alter that fact and that is clearly evident from his physical attributes.
The problem with this debate is that people are being asked to believe the unbelievable. They are being asked to accept fiction as fact. If the problems this throws up were confined to sport it would be bad enough but not intractable. But it’s not confined to sport. As I illustrated earlier, a serious miscarriage of justice was almost perpetrated because NHS workers are compelled to accept opinion as fact. This even stretches so far that they are instructed to tell lies to the police investigating allegations of a very serious criminal offence (which, in the eyes of most women, is probably second only to murder – and some may say even worse). I don’t care what opinion people have of their gender as long as they don’t expect me to accept their opinion as fact. All the shouting and stamping of feet by the “trans” lobby will not alter my viewpoint. This is no joke and it’s about time the lunacy ended.
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