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So Johnson Did Know About Pincher Allegations
87 Answers
….and so did Dominic Raab.
https:/
More lies from the Tory heads.
Why does Johnson only appoint sycophants and grovellers instead of people qualified for the job with no previous baggage or allegations?
When will all this end?
https:/
More lies from the Tory heads.
Why does Johnson only appoint sycophants and grovellers instead of people qualified for the job with no previous baggage or allegations?
When will all this end?
Answers
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Ha ! I thought on AB I would read - "so what Pincher aint darn narfin, he aint been convicted , so !"
Presumably our great PM thought - he was fined and lived froo it and so can Pincher - ( sicut vivat Pincher.... he probably thought. Bright Latinist, he is [=writes Latin sine google, you ignoramuses] )
Even the Mogg was thrashing. Oh God!
The mogg himself ( per se) said: there are a profusion of rumours and you cant pay attention to all of them (!) and you deny them all as is quite proper for a properly brought up boy (!!). And then one of them turns out to be true quet by chance ( you look like a liar and damned fool)
It was pathetic: I enjoyed and savoured every second
Presumably our great PM thought - he was fined and lived froo it and so can Pincher - ( sicut vivat Pincher.... he probably thought. Bright Latinist, he is [=writes Latin sine google, you ignoramuses] )
Even the Mogg was thrashing. Oh God!
The mogg himself ( per se) said: there are a profusion of rumours and you cant pay attention to all of them (!) and you deny them all as is quite proper for a properly brought up boy (!!). And then one of them turns out to be true quet by chance ( you look like a liar and damned fool)
It was pathetic: I enjoyed and savoured every second
Well, MacmIllan,
in hospital one day with banka phones
and engineer comes in and takes them out
coz he is PM no more !
That was the time 1963 that half of England thought his prostate was from lusting after teenage girls ( satyr, satyriasis)
perhaps
and more to the point - the process of unseating which was private and yet public, was deemed unedifying and the newish system came in
am I the only one to have passed History O level here?
in hospital one day with banka phones
and engineer comes in and takes them out
coz he is PM no more !
That was the time 1963 that half of England thought his prostate was from lusting after teenage girls ( satyr, satyriasis)
perhaps
and more to the point - the process of unseating which was private and yet public, was deemed unedifying and the newish system came in
am I the only one to have passed History O level here?
https:/
It’s hotting up.
Sir Simon letter shows 'final breakdown' of confidence in Number 10
A former Conservative minister has got in touch with our political correspondent Tamara Cohen, following the letter from Sir Simon McDonald this morning.
They said: "It's highly unusual for this sort of intervention by the past permanent secretary of a department.
"It must illustrate a final breakdown of any confidence in a Number 10 operation which appears to be careless of the truth and throw good ministers under the bus to utter what later becomes clear as falsehoods.
"If it illustrates a loss of support from those who really know the inside story of how a government works, it could be catastrophic for those maintaining the present charade."
The ex-minister adds that post-confidence vote, Boris Johnson is safe and unless a sitting minister resigns, nothing much may change.
But they say "this business must bring it closer".
Earlier today, the former Tory justice secretary, David Gauke, tweeted: "A minister can expect to have to go out and defend an unpopular line and that can be uncomfortable. But a minister is entitled to expect that they won’t be lied to by Number 10.
"Of course, at this point ministers must know that there’s a good chance that they are being lied to. And they don’t have to do media interviews."
Imploding.
It’s hotting up.
Sir Simon letter shows 'final breakdown' of confidence in Number 10
A former Conservative minister has got in touch with our political correspondent Tamara Cohen, following the letter from Sir Simon McDonald this morning.
They said: "It's highly unusual for this sort of intervention by the past permanent secretary of a department.
"It must illustrate a final breakdown of any confidence in a Number 10 operation which appears to be careless of the truth and throw good ministers under the bus to utter what later becomes clear as falsehoods.
"If it illustrates a loss of support from those who really know the inside story of how a government works, it could be catastrophic for those maintaining the present charade."
The ex-minister adds that post-confidence vote, Boris Johnson is safe and unless a sitting minister resigns, nothing much may change.
But they say "this business must bring it closer".
Earlier today, the former Tory justice secretary, David Gauke, tweeted: "A minister can expect to have to go out and defend an unpopular line and that can be uncomfortable. But a minister is entitled to expect that they won’t be lied to by Number 10.
"Of course, at this point ministers must know that there’s a good chance that they are being lied to. And they don’t have to do media interviews."
Imploding.
Did anyone notice the shift in shifty TTT's argument
you cant remove Boris the Bodger, not because he is a good PM, not because he an innate truther, not because he pays attention to his underlings and the electorate
but because (TTT avers) there is no mechanism to remove him
( = no axe and chopping block available for you slow proles)
you cant remove Boris the Bodger, not because he is a good PM, not because he an innate truther, not because he pays attention to his underlings and the electorate
but because (TTT avers) there is no mechanism to remove him
( = no axe and chopping block available for you slow proles)
tomus: "I thought I'd made that clear ttt." - where? When?
"Anyway, it baffles me why you don't want him gone yourself. Surely you can see he's become a electoral liability? You do still want the Tories to win the next election yes? " - because I am not a sheep I don't follow the lynch mob. Do you just want everyone to agree with you?
"Anyway, it baffles me why you don't want him gone yourself. Surely you can see he's become a electoral liability? You do still want the Tories to win the next election yes? " - because I am not a sheep I don't follow the lynch mob. Do you just want everyone to agree with you?
From the BBC.
Lord McDonald's letter was dynamite.
It’s extraordinary that Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab this morning didn’t know that Boris Johnson had received a briefing and been told that Chris Pincher was subject to an internal investigation back in 2019.
Raab is not the first minister to be put in a very tricky situation over the last two or three days.
Right back to Friday ministers have been trying to explain No 10's version of events, which has frankly changed as the days have passed.
Go back to Friday when the prime minister’s official spokesperson said Johnson was not aware of allegations about Chris Pincher's behaviour before his appointment as deputy chief whip in February.
That position had already shifted by yesterday afternoon and has been blown out of the water by Lord McDonald's letter today.
There will be people meeting in the cabinet now who will be upset - to say the least - about the way the last few days have unfolded.
But where does this take us in terms of Boris Johnson’s future and also Chris Pincher’s career as an MP? At the moment there’s no indication Pincher is ready to throw in the towel and trigger a by-election. I don't think No 10 want that.
There are questions piling up for Downing Street and the prime minister to answer about precisely what he knew and when.
Someone’s underwear is getting warm!
Maybe the select committee might get the summer off after all? Lol.
Lord McDonald's letter was dynamite.
It’s extraordinary that Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab this morning didn’t know that Boris Johnson had received a briefing and been told that Chris Pincher was subject to an internal investigation back in 2019.
Raab is not the first minister to be put in a very tricky situation over the last two or three days.
Right back to Friday ministers have been trying to explain No 10's version of events, which has frankly changed as the days have passed.
Go back to Friday when the prime minister’s official spokesperson said Johnson was not aware of allegations about Chris Pincher's behaviour before his appointment as deputy chief whip in February.
That position had already shifted by yesterday afternoon and has been blown out of the water by Lord McDonald's letter today.
There will be people meeting in the cabinet now who will be upset - to say the least - about the way the last few days have unfolded.
But where does this take us in terms of Boris Johnson’s future and also Chris Pincher’s career as an MP? At the moment there’s no indication Pincher is ready to throw in the towel and trigger a by-election. I don't think No 10 want that.
There are questions piling up for Downing Street and the prime minister to answer about precisely what he knew and when.
Someone’s underwear is getting warm!
Maybe the select committee might get the summer off after all? Lol.
This should help keep everyone informed.
Lord McDonald, the former top civil servant in the Foreign Office, has written to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards Kathryn Stone over No 10's statements on MP Chris Pincher, who last week resigned as a Conservative whip and was then suspended as a party MP over allegations he groped two men at a private members' club in London.
Here is the letter in full:
Dear Ms Stone,
The RT Hon Christopher Pincher MP
Five days after Mr Pincher's resignation as deputy chief whip, there remains significant confusion surrounding complaints about his behaviour prior to the drunkenness he admits at the Carlton Club on 29 June.
Inaccurate claims by 10 Downing Street continue to be repeated in the media. On 3 July, the BBC website reported: "No official complaints against [Mr Pincher] were ever made."
This is not true. In the summer of 2019, shortly after he was appointed minister of state at the Foreign Office, a group of officials complained to me about Mr Pincher's behaviour. I discussed the matter with the relevant official at the Cabinet Office. (In substance, the allegations were similar to those made about his behaviour at the Carlton Club.) An investigation upheld the complaint; Mr Pincher apologised and promised not to repeat the inappropriate behaviour. There was no repetition at the FCO before he left seven months later.
The same BBC website report continued: "Downing Street has said Boris Johnson was not aware of any specific allegations when he appointed Mr Pincher deputy chief whip in February." By 4 July the BBC website reflected a change in No 10's line: "The prime minister's official spokesman said Mr Johnson knew of 'allegations that were either resolved or did not progress to a formal complaint,' adding that 'it was deemed not appropriate to stop an appointment simply because of unsubstantiated allegations'."
The original No 10 line is not true and the modification is still not accurate. Mr Johnson was briefed in person about the initiation and outcome of the investigation. There was a "formal complaint". Allegations were "resolved" only in the sense that the investigation was completed; Mr Pincher was not exonerated. To characterise the allegations as "unsubstantiated" is therefore wrong.
I am aware that [it] is unusual to write to you and simultaneously publicise the letter. I am conscious of the duty owed to the target of an investigation but I act out of my duty towards the victims. Mr Pincher deceived me and others in 2019. He cannot be allowed to use the confidentiality of the process three years ago to pursue his predatory behaviour in other contexts.
Yours sincerely,
Simon
McDonald of Salford
Permanent under-Secretary
Foreign & Commonwealth Office
(2015-2020)
Lord McDonald, the former top civil servant in the Foreign Office, has written to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards Kathryn Stone over No 10's statements on MP Chris Pincher, who last week resigned as a Conservative whip and was then suspended as a party MP over allegations he groped two men at a private members' club in London.
Here is the letter in full:
Dear Ms Stone,
The RT Hon Christopher Pincher MP
Five days after Mr Pincher's resignation as deputy chief whip, there remains significant confusion surrounding complaints about his behaviour prior to the drunkenness he admits at the Carlton Club on 29 June.
Inaccurate claims by 10 Downing Street continue to be repeated in the media. On 3 July, the BBC website reported: "No official complaints against [Mr Pincher] were ever made."
This is not true. In the summer of 2019, shortly after he was appointed minister of state at the Foreign Office, a group of officials complained to me about Mr Pincher's behaviour. I discussed the matter with the relevant official at the Cabinet Office. (In substance, the allegations were similar to those made about his behaviour at the Carlton Club.) An investigation upheld the complaint; Mr Pincher apologised and promised not to repeat the inappropriate behaviour. There was no repetition at the FCO before he left seven months later.
The same BBC website report continued: "Downing Street has said Boris Johnson was not aware of any specific allegations when he appointed Mr Pincher deputy chief whip in February." By 4 July the BBC website reflected a change in No 10's line: "The prime minister's official spokesman said Mr Johnson knew of 'allegations that were either resolved or did not progress to a formal complaint,' adding that 'it was deemed not appropriate to stop an appointment simply because of unsubstantiated allegations'."
The original No 10 line is not true and the modification is still not accurate. Mr Johnson was briefed in person about the initiation and outcome of the investigation. There was a "formal complaint". Allegations were "resolved" only in the sense that the investigation was completed; Mr Pincher was not exonerated. To characterise the allegations as "unsubstantiated" is therefore wrong.
I am aware that [it] is unusual to write to you and simultaneously publicise the letter. I am conscious of the duty owed to the target of an investigation but I act out of my duty towards the victims. Mr Pincher deceived me and others in 2019. He cannot be allowed to use the confidentiality of the process three years ago to pursue his predatory behaviour in other contexts.
Yours sincerely,
Simon
McDonald of Salford
Permanent under-Secretary
Foreign & Commonwealth Office
(2015-2020)
// because I am not a sheep I don't follow the lynch mob //
Good for you. I don't either. I'd quite like him to still be there come the next election.
Most likely though he'll get through his current scandal, and during a relatively calm period prior to the election be persuaded to hand over the reins for the sake of the party.
Good for you. I don't either. I'd quite like him to still be there come the next election.
Most likely though he'll get through his current scandal, and during a relatively calm period prior to the election be persuaded to hand over the reins for the sake of the party.
The former Tory Chief Whip puts his oar in.
Tory MP Mark Harper strongly criticises No 10
Former Conservative Chief Whip Mark Harper says "it does appear that ministers of the crown have been lied to by people in No 10", saying: "I think the prime minister has some serious questions to answer."
"Downing Street is supposed to have been reorganised" since partygate, he states, but the weeks since "haven't demonstrated a great deal of change".
He says he hasn't "changed my opinion" since deciding that Boris Johnson had to leave office over his conduct from partygate.
Tory MP Mark Harper strongly criticises No 10
Former Conservative Chief Whip Mark Harper says "it does appear that ministers of the crown have been lied to by people in No 10", saying: "I think the prime minister has some serious questions to answer."
"Downing Street is supposed to have been reorganised" since partygate, he states, but the weeks since "haven't demonstrated a great deal of change".
He says he hasn't "changed my opinion" since deciding that Boris Johnson had to leave office over his conduct from partygate.
Speaking in Parliament just now at the despatch box.
PM did not immediately recall conversation about 2019 Pincher incident - Ellis
Relating to the 2019 incident involving Chris Pincher while he was a Foreign Office minister, Ellis says Boris Johnson was made aware of this issue in late 2019, but was told the necessary action had been taken.
He says last week the PM did not immediately recall the conversation about this incident and as soon as he was reminded the No 10 press office corrected its lines.
Lol, I’ll bloody bet he didn’t immediately recall it! After all he’s only one of his best mates being appointed to one of the highest offices in politics? Pathetic.
PM did not immediately recall conversation about 2019 Pincher incident - Ellis
Relating to the 2019 incident involving Chris Pincher while he was a Foreign Office minister, Ellis says Boris Johnson was made aware of this issue in late 2019, but was told the necessary action had been taken.
He says last week the PM did not immediately recall the conversation about this incident and as soon as he was reminded the No 10 press office corrected its lines.
Lol, I’ll bloody bet he didn’t immediately recall it! After all he’s only one of his best mates being appointed to one of the highest offices in politics? Pathetic.
Lol, it appears that Johnson’s short term memory loss has resurfaced, poor chap must be going senile.
Downing Street suggests PM forgot he was briefed on investigation which upheld complaint against Chris Pincher in 2019
Downing Street has confirmed Boris Johnson was briefed on a Foreign Office investigation which upheld a complaint of inappropriate behaviour against Chris Pincher in 2019 - despite previously saying the PM was unaware of specific allegations against him.
At today's daily lobby briefing, the prime minister's official spokesman was asked directly why he apparently misled journalists yesterday.
He responded: "I will always seek to provide the information I have available to me at the time of each briefing. I can get into the details of what we have established but I don't accept what you've said."
He went on: "I think those of you that were here for yesterday's briefing would have heard me say that he was aware of allegations that were either resolved, and that would relate to the FCDO investigation, or that did not progress to a complaint.
"And it was important to be clear on that and that's why I made the point of updating you all when we had the information available to us yesterday."
The official spokesman, who is a civil servant and not a political appointee, said the fact Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab has now publicly discussed the FCDO investigation meant he was able to say more about it.
"The deputy prime minister has talked through the detail of this case I was unable to do that yesterday given the anonymity of the incident, but I'm now able to given it's been raised by the deputy prime minister and former permanent secretary," he said.
"A complaint was made. It was looked into through the Foreign Office processes with support from the propriety and ethics team. The complaint was upheld albeit not dealt with as a formal disciplinary matter and was resolved as such.
"I can confirm [the PM] was briefed on that about the complaint relating to Mr Pincher in the Foreign Office , which was resolved. I don't believe that there was formal meeting to inform him of that, but I'm still seeking to establish details."
He later said he believed this briefing took place in late 2019.
Asked why the PM thought it was still appropriate to appoint Mr Pincher to deputy chief whip in February 2022, the spokesman said:
"The prime minister at the time when he offered the job, was not aware of any new specific allegations that were being looked at, as clarified yesterday.
"That was the fullest picture we had yesterday, which we sort of set out. You will know that some of this goes back over a number of years and so it has taken a number of days to get some of that information out. That's why I clarified the position on Monday.
"It was not raised as a disciplinary issue or anything related to the ministerial code, and the prime minister was informed but not asked to take any action as a result of that. And the minister as a result of that action carried on serving in that department for a number of months."
Pressed on the issue, the spokesman confirmed the PM was made aware of allegations against Mr Pincher by the propriety and ethics team after he was offered the role of deputy chief whip.
He added the claim raised was "essentially unsubstantiated" but acknowledged it was not for the propriety and ethics team to "sign off" the appointment and that the final decision is for ministers.
Since Mr Pincher's resignation on Thursday night ministers have repeatedly said in interviews that the PM was not aware of allegations against him.
Yesterday education minister Will Quince told Sky News he had received "categorical assurances" from Number 10 that this was the case.
Downing Street suggests PM forgot he was briefed on investigation which upheld complaint against Chris Pincher in 2019
Downing Street has confirmed Boris Johnson was briefed on a Foreign Office investigation which upheld a complaint of inappropriate behaviour against Chris Pincher in 2019 - despite previously saying the PM was unaware of specific allegations against him.
At today's daily lobby briefing, the prime minister's official spokesman was asked directly why he apparently misled journalists yesterday.
He responded: "I will always seek to provide the information I have available to me at the time of each briefing. I can get into the details of what we have established but I don't accept what you've said."
He went on: "I think those of you that were here for yesterday's briefing would have heard me say that he was aware of allegations that were either resolved, and that would relate to the FCDO investigation, or that did not progress to a complaint.
"And it was important to be clear on that and that's why I made the point of updating you all when we had the information available to us yesterday."
The official spokesman, who is a civil servant and not a political appointee, said the fact Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab has now publicly discussed the FCDO investigation meant he was able to say more about it.
"The deputy prime minister has talked through the detail of this case I was unable to do that yesterday given the anonymity of the incident, but I'm now able to given it's been raised by the deputy prime minister and former permanent secretary," he said.
"A complaint was made. It was looked into through the Foreign Office processes with support from the propriety and ethics team. The complaint was upheld albeit not dealt with as a formal disciplinary matter and was resolved as such.
"I can confirm [the PM] was briefed on that about the complaint relating to Mr Pincher in the Foreign Office , which was resolved. I don't believe that there was formal meeting to inform him of that, but I'm still seeking to establish details."
He later said he believed this briefing took place in late 2019.
Asked why the PM thought it was still appropriate to appoint Mr Pincher to deputy chief whip in February 2022, the spokesman said:
"The prime minister at the time when he offered the job, was not aware of any new specific allegations that were being looked at, as clarified yesterday.
"That was the fullest picture we had yesterday, which we sort of set out. You will know that some of this goes back over a number of years and so it has taken a number of days to get some of that information out. That's why I clarified the position on Monday.
"It was not raised as a disciplinary issue or anything related to the ministerial code, and the prime minister was informed but not asked to take any action as a result of that. And the minister as a result of that action carried on serving in that department for a number of months."
Pressed on the issue, the spokesman confirmed the PM was made aware of allegations against Mr Pincher by the propriety and ethics team after he was offered the role of deputy chief whip.
He added the claim raised was "essentially unsubstantiated" but acknowledged it was not for the propriety and ethics team to "sign off" the appointment and that the final decision is for ministers.
Since Mr Pincher's resignation on Thursday night ministers have repeatedly said in interviews that the PM was not aware of allegations against him.
Yesterday education minister Will Quince told Sky News he had received "categorical assurances" from Number 10 that this was the case.
From the BBC.
This is all about one thing: truth.
Stand back from the swirl of detail and allegations, and it boils down to whether people can believe what No 10 is saying.
And when I say people, of course, firstly that means the electorate.
But it also means the very ministers, members of the government, sent out to explain what the prime minister knew and when.
Grounded into how that works, normally at least, is that they are briefed on the lines to take in response to particular questions.
No 10 not telling truth about Pincher - ex-official
Lord McDonald's Chris Pincher letter in full
They have to assume that what they are being told is accurate and truthful.
To put it politely, Downing Street's response to the allegations of recent days has evolved.
Various iterations of it have, it would seem, turned out to be drivel.
And this matters because while this current row relates to the alleged behaviour of the former deputy chief whip, the timeline rings one or two bells for those familiar with all those rows about what became known as 'partygate'.
It goes on…
And bubbling away underneath, increasing exasperation, from the cabinet down, within the Conservative Party, of the ongoing inability of Number 10 to actually focus on the business of government, rather than constantly firefighting crises about the prime minister's capacity to tell the truth.
Senior ministers who until very recently, the last 10 days, had assumed Boris Johnson would lead them into the next general election now aren't so sure.
And even those still supportive are worn down by what they see as the persistent own goals from Downing Street, which they regard as hard, even impossible to defend.
Seems an accurate summary.
What say the Borstriches? Lol
This is all about one thing: truth.
Stand back from the swirl of detail and allegations, and it boils down to whether people can believe what No 10 is saying.
And when I say people, of course, firstly that means the electorate.
But it also means the very ministers, members of the government, sent out to explain what the prime minister knew and when.
Grounded into how that works, normally at least, is that they are briefed on the lines to take in response to particular questions.
No 10 not telling truth about Pincher - ex-official
Lord McDonald's Chris Pincher letter in full
They have to assume that what they are being told is accurate and truthful.
To put it politely, Downing Street's response to the allegations of recent days has evolved.
Various iterations of it have, it would seem, turned out to be drivel.
And this matters because while this current row relates to the alleged behaviour of the former deputy chief whip, the timeline rings one or two bells for those familiar with all those rows about what became known as 'partygate'.
It goes on…
And bubbling away underneath, increasing exasperation, from the cabinet down, within the Conservative Party, of the ongoing inability of Number 10 to actually focus on the business of government, rather than constantly firefighting crises about the prime minister's capacity to tell the truth.
Senior ministers who until very recently, the last 10 days, had assumed Boris Johnson would lead them into the next general election now aren't so sure.
And even those still supportive are worn down by what they see as the persistent own goals from Downing Street, which they regard as hard, even impossible to defend.
Seems an accurate summary.
What say the Borstriches? Lol
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