Elton Musk's Plan

[Khandro]

'Billionaire Elon Musk asked Twitter users to weigh in on a plan to end the war which included proposing UN-supervised elections in the four occupied regions and recognising Crimea, which Moscow seized in 2014, as Russian. The plan drew immediate condemnation from Ukrainians, including Mr Zelenskyy.'

What do you think of it?

[ichkeria]

"The donetsk and luhansk "republics" are puppet states sp... i don't think we can assume that their secessionism is genuine... even if a large number of the population favoured joining russia it's very doubtful that would still be true after the invasion... "

Indeed, also to the comment about Crimea. All these areas had some "pro-Russian" sympathies (whatever that actually means) but were in no way looking to break away from Ukraine. The planning we now know for this started in Russia some years before. Thousands of pro-ukrainians were attacked and fled after mounting peaceful pro-Ukraine protests against what was happening. In many cases the demos were brutally attacked by kremlin-backed thugs.
There's an interesting report here on life in the occupied territories of Ukraine here. The idea that there would be a "UN monitored referendum here" is massively insulting to these people and their families, and to the tens of thousands who have fled.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63076570

[davebro]

So the only answers seems to be:

1) a war of attrition until Russia decides enough is enough & pulls out (they were in Afghanistan for 10 years).

2) or Putin gets desperate & resorts to nuclear weapons on a medium or large scale triggering NATO intervention "on the ground" & possibly resulting in WWIII.

Not very enticing prospects.

[ichkeria]

"Apologies if this has already been pointed out but....
the people of Donbas and Crimea voted to be part of the Ukraine back in 1991. "

It won't surprise you zacs, to be told that I had already bored people with this a little earlier :-)
"(Crimea which only voted 57-ish for independence in 1991 in contrast to other regions 85-95%) also has been settled with 500,000 to 800,00 Russians since that was annexed)."

[ichkeria]

"1) a war of attrition until Russia decides enough is enough & pulls out (they were in Afghanistan for 10 years).
"
What is happening now is no war of attrition: it's the Russians heroically retreating while Ukraine pursues them in panic :-)
Meanwhile the joke is that Musk has developed a new russian version of the tesla, with a reverse gear much faster than any of its forward ones ...

[Zacs-Master]

Ah, apologies. I see certain posters are still (evidentially) saying the opposite.

[ichkeria]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some of them are based on misconceptions, though, so you feel those opinions might alter otherwise.

[Untitled]

i am no expert but can russia REALLY afford a long war of attrition? the ussr had far more resources to throw into afghanistan and russia's economy has already been weakened... considering the losses they have already suffered i don't know how much longer they can afford this

[ichkeria]

No need to apologise. It's something that needs to be said as often as possible!

[ichkeria]

https://twitter.com/United24media/status/1577050112471072770

I really need to drop this now :-)

[Peter Pedant]

The shift in populations ( so quickly) is somehting new
Stalin deported the Crimean Tatars ( Tartars are some other people) for collaboration ( with the Nazis silly!). and 3m have been displaced in Ukraine.
Lyman 25000 is empty - empty and FREE ! that is
better than being empty flat and free

so I am not sure what a vote means

Kherson if you recollect the Russians just walked in.
The Mayor said, Hi boys do you want me to run the city?
and the freedom loving Russian liberators said
" no get into deez car and go to concentratzy! nice blindforld for you"
well the mayor should have shown more barlz

[ichkeria]

Russia is estimated to have lost 1200 soldiers in the last three days.
That isn't attrition, it's demoltion.

[Peter Pedant]

// Ah, apologies. I see certain posters are still (evidentially) saying the opposite.//
so what?
everyone is entittled
do you mean evidentially ( in evidence) or evidently ( so I see)
(they have difft answers)

[Peter Pedant]

yeah but no but
50 000 first day of the somme
250 000 whole of confederacy
29 000 000 Russia and satellites 2ndWW

In liberated gombooli-tansk ( a place I have made up) the old ladies were reporting that the occupiers had only one question
dirty beasts !
no - where are the Nazis....( so they cd kill them and go home presumably).

will we really ask in 30y - what was this all about?

[Khandro]

The Musk plan does not include a referendum in Crimea, they simply hold on to it. Which would acknowledge the fact that it was illegally ceded to them by Yeltsin after it had been Russian for c. 300 years.

[Peter Pedant]

god it is a bit like Yugoslavia....

[steg]

//The plan drew immediate condemnation from Ukrainians, including Mr Zelenskyy.' //

Totally agree with them.. until all areas are returned back to Ukraine and all Russian forces exit Ukrainian land ……..

[ichkeria]

The “Musk plan” was a Twitter fart.
Twitter is great. But there’s also a lot of nonsense in there.
As far as Crimea is concerned we have been over this a zillion times. “Historical claims are a part of history. Ukraine could claim parts of Russia “historically”. Other people could claim Crimea as illustrated by that little video.
But the modern world order respects borders. And certainly condemns illegal annexations.
Russians in full retreat btw in N Kherson as we speak.

[Untitled]

why should russia be allowed to keep crimea? they seized it illegally by force of arms

[Khandro]

Listen up kids, I'm very much on the side of Ukraine, I'm very much anti-Putin, but how do you see this ending, another Beirut ? Isn't it time for a little more brain and a little less emotion?

I don't actually think the plan has much chance of working, but at least it's an intelligent suggestion, something to work on maybe.

[Khandro]

Untitled; //why should russia be allowed to keep crimea? they seized it illegally by force of arms//

Go and read a little history.