Finally Some Common Sense

[youngmafbog]

Single-sex schools will be able to reject transgender pupils and teachers can refuse to call children by their preferred pronouns under new Government guidelines

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11983441/Single-sex-schools-able-reject-transgender-pupils-new-Government-guidelines.html

[Ellipsis]

Thank you, Naomi, for giving such a clear answer (yes). Please could you give an example of bigotry against transgender people?

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, oh you did see it - so when you said //The closest Naomi seems to have got is her answer at 11.00// - that wasn't true. Okay.

[ClareTG0ld]

Oh, and please don't say you did by referring me to NJ's earlier "answer": I've already addressed that. NJ's too occupied with trying to explain why he's not bigoted in refusing to address transgender people by their name, or gender, or in affording them any respect at all; or in only portraying them as "invasive" or "demanding", or in obliging them to hide their identity in order to fit in, etc etc ... but if it walks like a bigot and quacks like a bigot, then, well...

[naomi24]

Ellipsis. Why me? I am not on trial here, so no.

[ClareTG0ld]

It's pretty unambiguous that I saw your post at 6.29, since I addressed it directly earlier on today:

Your quote was "bigots exist in all areas of life"; mine, in
https://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/find/answer/13550160 , was "Clearly bigotry exists in all areas of life." So, yes, I was aware of it.

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, calling people names doesn't win your argument. It's the last resort of a failing argument.

[Ellipsis]

Just because you're here and we're talking. As usual, there's no need to answer. :)

[ClareTG0ld]

// ClareTG0ld, calling people names doesn't win your argument. It's the last resort of a failing argument. //

If bigotry exists, and yet we are never able to call it out because to do so is a "failing argument", then bigotry may as well not exist.

[naomi24]

Ellipsis, I've said I don't know what goes on in a bigot's mind. ClareTG0ld seems to be under the impression that anyone who voices an objection for any reason is a bigot - as does Untitled and Red Helen - so perhaps one of them is better placed to answer your question.

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, you are 'calling it out' - but I'm not convinced you're doing it in a rational manner.

[ClareTG0ld]

// ClareTG0ld seems to be under the impression that anyone who voices an objection for any reason is a bigot... //

I'm very much not -- as I said earlier, in response to NJ's own false accusation of this, reasonable people can reasonably disagree. There's scope for reasonable disagreement here.

The problem is that a lot of this is not reasonable. NJ's description of the transgender experience is not a reasonable disagreement, it's an offensive caricature, dismissive at every single level.

[Redhelen72]

//ClareTG0ld seems to be under the impression that anyone who voices an objection for any reason is a bigot - as does Untitled and Red Helen//

Where have either Clare, Untitled or I said that?

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, If you have issues with NJ's posts take it up with him. I've yet to see you address my wholly valid point about young female students being obliged to share toilets, showers and changing rooms with people who are in possession of a full set of male genitalia.

[naomi24]

RH, As I said, just the impression you gave me. Nice to know you don't think I'm a bigot though, so thanks for coming back on that.

[Redhelen72]

again - I didn't say that either

[ClareTG0ld]

My entire line in this thread has been to try and ask you about your opinions, and explore the boundaries that still exist there. I don't particularly have any desire to engage with your own questions, especially when they are framed as "wholly valid", which of course leaves me no room to do anything other than agree. I could, perhaps, refer you to my experiences, but perhaps they would just be another example of my "selfishness" and "thoughtlessness", etc.

[naomi24]

RH, Hmmm.... I've considered it both ways and I'm apparently wrong on both counts - so what exactly did you say?

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, you don't think that's a wholly valid concern?

[Zacs-Master]

Jesus. I see Naomi is back pedalling. Again. Disgraceful dodging of questions by obfuscation and generally being disingenuine. Your dismissive answer that trans people would go to other schools is both childishly dismissive and fictitious, and you know it.

[Untitled]

" to be under the impression that anyone who voices an objection for any reason is a bigot - as does Untitled and Red Helen "

i consider anyone bigoted whose opening gambit is either to deny trans people their humanity and insist that they are wrong about themselves or to portray trans people as hostile "invaders" seeking to attack the privacy of women through deception

i'll let you in on something naomi... i used to have the same view as you! i had never thought much about trans people before jk rowling's famous essay... and when it came out i completely agreed with her.

do you know what i did after that? i did what i always do... i studied the people i thought were my opponents... i read and watched and listened to as much as i could about the perspective of trans people and i realised that i was wrong!

if any readers of this site (presumably not the incurious naomi/newjudge but you never know) are interested then i suggest...

Trans Like Me by CJ Werlman
The Transgender Issue by Shon Faye (both are cheap on kindle!)
The youtube videos "Gender Critical" and "J K Rowling" by Contrapoints (they are long so make a cup of tea)

there are also some brilliant novels out there by trans people about being trans but that's a topic for another thread :)