Shortsighted Politicians Over Defence.

[William51]

 An unstable world with a major war in Europe which the mad Putin has control over Russias nuclear missiles, a war in the Middle East, global conflicts. But against the experts our politicians will not fund properly our depleted armed forces. This dangerous time should be the signal to fund our services properly. Discuss please.

[ToraToraTora]

AH: "I don't 'knock' anyone, thank you" - perlease there are several posts on here deriding our "pitiful" status. Well we are still in the top 10 of pretty well any measure so we aren't yet a total basket case as much as people like you would like us to be.

[ToraToraTora]

AH: "We haven't got that level of money to spend in that area." - cobras, we have a massive work shy scum budget and the NHS takes about 15% of GDP. Rip some off them and increase defence spending to 3.5% GDP. A couple of years ago we spend 10x the defence budget to pay people to stay at home in those disasterous lock downs etc. We easily have the income.

[andy-hughes]

TTT - // AH: "I don't 'knock' anyone, thank you" - perlease there are several posts on here deriding our "pitiful" status. Well we are still in the top 10 of pretty well any measure so we aren't yet a total basket case as much as people like you would like us to be. //

I am not sure who 'people like you' are supposed to be.

If I wanted to the UK to be a 'basket case', I would say so.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

[andy-hughes]

TTT - // We easily have the income. //

Then I suggest we start spending it in the areas it is needed - starting with health and education.

That is the entire thrust of my point - while our services are in such dire straits, we cannot afford to allocate billions of pounds to buying weapons that sit idle until they are either played with in war games, or abandoned for the latest more expensive upgrade.

[ToraToraTora]

12:23 You're a typical left wing knocker you do it almost involutarily becaure it's in your nature. I don't have to put words in your mouth your sneering psuedo intellectual superiority speaks volumes.

[ToraToraTora]

"Then I suggest we start spending it in the areas it is needed - starting with health and education." - they don't need more money they need to use what they have more efficiently, especially the NHS.

[andy-hughes]

TTT - // 12:23 You're a typical left wing knocker you do it almost involutarily becaure it's in your nature. I don't have to put words in your mouth your sneering psuedo intellectual superiority speaks volumes. //

Thank you for your character assessment.

I have never voted Labour in my life, but don't let the facts get in the way of you being rude to me - again.

[ToraToraTora]

You are being rude to my country, I take that personally.

[THECORBYLOON]

"You are being rude to my country"

Can you be rude "to" a country?

 

[andy-hughes]

TTT - It's not 'your' country.

It's the country that, by a fortunate accident of birth, you were born into.

Your notion of some sort of 'ownership speaks to your constantly advertised and illustrated sense of self-righteousness. 

[ToraToraTora]

AH I don't mean ownership when I say my country any more than I do when I say My local pub or my local Tesco.  I mean my nation state the state to which I belong. But you know that don't you. So if you deride and belittle my country like you and many others on here do on a regular basis I take that personally. You don't have to vote Labour to be a lefty. In many ways the Lib non dems are more left wing these days and I'll bet my left dangly that you voted for them.

[Ellipsis]

> Of course money is tight at present with insufficient to fund all that needs funding

The water companies are doing well though ...

[ParsleyDumpling]

There was a very good article in yesterday's (Saturday) Daily Mail, about defence. My son is just over half way through basic training at Raleigh, I care very much that our armed forces are funded and managed well.

[andy-hughes]

TTT - // AH I don't mean ownership when I say my country any more than I do when I say My local pub or my local Tesco.  I mean my nation state the state to which I belong. But you know that don't you. //

No actually, I don't.

I do know that people who get all teary-eyed and patriotic when the mood takes them would not dream of reacting with such hostility if someone said their local Tesco or their local pub was not actully up to par anymore.

So when you refer to 'my country', you and I know that you absolutely believe you have a stake in it, which you do, and what happens to it happens to you, and it does.

But what you fail to grasp, is that that also applies to me in exactly the same way, no  more, and no less.

I contribute to the country, I live here, I care what happens, just like you do.

And I also have a right to express an opinion, because I enjoy the privelidge of free speech, just like you do.

But where we part company, is that when I express a view, not about the country at all, but the way that politicians are spending the money that I (and you) generate, you diasgree.

But the parting is not that you disagree, it is that you think you have the right to be rude and obnoxious to me, because you think I am wrong.

I have debated with you dozens of times, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't but I never overtly nasty and offensive to you, unless in response to you being so first, and this thread is no exception.

 

 

So if you deride and belittle my country like you and many others on here do on a regular basis I take that personally. //

I haven't, and I don't, that's your interpretation and it is incorrect.

// You don't have to vote Labour to be a lefty. In many ways the Lib non dems are more left wing these days and I'll bet my left dangly that you voted for them. //

You can bet any part of your anatomy you like, my voting preferences are absolutely none of your business.

Hopefully we can continue to exchnage thoughts, but if you continue being personally offensive, I shall report you, and desist entirely from exchanging with you.

[andy-hughes]

Ellipsis - // 

> Of course money is tight at present with insufficient to fund all that needs funding

The water companies are doing well though ... //

I think that depends what you call 'doing well'.

If you see them as a private company making money for their executives and shareholders, then yes, they are doing very well.

If you see them as a public utility, which is what they should be, providing a public service, them of course they come up woefully short.

Because all the money that should be invested in providing a better service and plugging leaks, gets syphoned off (sorry!) to pay dividends and bonuses.

[ToraToraTora]

AH: "So when you refer to 'my country', you and I know that you absolutely believe you have a stake in it, which you do, and what happens to it happens to you, and it does.

But what you fail to grasp, is that that also applies to me in exactly the same way, no  more, and no less.

I contribute to the country, I live here, I care what happens, just like you do." - You have a funny way of showing it.

"And I also have a right to express an opinion, because I enjoy the privelidge of free speech, just like you do." - Yes and I am allowed to respond to that opinion.

But where we part company, is that when I express a view, not about the country at all, but the way that politicians are spending the money that I (and you) generate, you diasgree.

But the parting is not that you disagree, it is that you think you have the right to be rude and obnoxious to me, because you think I am wrong." -  You and the similar minded take great delight in running this country down, that is rude and obnoxious to me, I merely respond in kind. 

"I have debated with you dozens of times, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't but I never overtly nasty and offensive to you, unless in response to you being so first, and this thread is no exception." - I find some of the things you say about my country are rude and offensive so to my mind I am just responding to them.

[andy-hughes]

TTT - // You and the similar minded take great delight in running this country down, that is rude and obnoxious to me, I merely respond in kind. //

If I am 'running the country down', which is not in fact true, then the country does not actually care, and does not respond.

I dont accept that you think you have the right to rise up in arms on behalf of 'the country' and be rude to me because you disagree with my point of view.

// I find some of the things you say about my country are rude and offensive so to my mind I am just responding to them. //

But I'm not saying them about you - that's the difference.

You are being deliberately rude to me personally, I am expressing a view that is not about you, or aimed at you, so your rudeness is not acceptable.

And yet again, since you missed it last time, I am not 'running the country down', I am making a point about what I believe to be inappropriate spending by politicians, on an immoral scale, on weapons to defend a country that neither needs it, or can afford it.

[andy-hughes]

TTT - // "And I also have a right to express an opinion, because I enjoy the privelidge of free speech, just like you do." - Yes and I am allowed to respond to that opinion. //

Yes you are, I have said so, but that means responding with an opinion of your own.

It does not mean being offensive to me personally, and I hope I am finally getting that point through to you.

[ToraToraTora]

AH: "But I'm not saying them about you - that's the difference." - you insult my country you insult me, can you not digest that?

"I am not 'running the country down', " - samples:

//If we were, as many politicians dream, still a major power on the world stage, then attacking us would be a viable option for an enemy.//

//The notion that we are big enough and powerful enough to cause a threat to other major powers is a fallacy.//

//I don't believe we have ever had, or ever will have, a level of defensive capability that would realistically deter any would-be aggressors any one of which make our defence systems look like a couple of catapults. //

//Instead of keeping up the facile illusion that we actually  matter as a major world power, we should stop pretending, stop pontificating, stop provoking, and stop antagonising.//

- we are more powerful than 97% of the world yet you run us into the ground, that is personally rude and offensive to me. I don't care that you don't think it's aimed at me, I DO and I will treat this kind of abuse of my country like it was aimed at me.

[Untitled]

it isn't just the military. it is all public services. all of them suffer from underinvestment and poor government. austerity was a big lie and does not work.