Iraq

[whiffey]

Is anybody watching the Channel 4 discussion with Jon Snow ?

Let them get on with it. They are Arabs, muslims, of whatever sort, and completely poles apart from any grand notion of 'democracy' that we might try to inflict upon them. They WANT to subjugate women, kill barbers who don't shave off a muslim man's moustache. It beggars belief - 7 barbers killed for not SHAVING OFF A MAN'S MOUSTACHE,

What a waste of time and lives. Get out, let them kill each other at will. It's the only (primitive) language they understand. In a cinema, or mosque, or council meeting near you soon.

[society]

Whiffey these people have no life or ambition. They are ignorants who don't even know why they are doing what they are doing.

[Lonnie]

The point is, they do know what they're doing, thay are living their lives within their interpretation of the Koran,

As you say though, our troops should come out, and let them get on with it.

[stokemaveric]

on a scale of 1-10 their intelligance is minus 20 all they know is killing and violence we are in a vietnam situation in iraq only much worse because british troops are involved.america has dragged the uk into oblivion with them. a war on terror MUST be fought but there is only 1 outcome and it will be a final one because eventually a nuclear option will be the only one to sort this mess out...because the us will soon run out of ideas.

[naomi24]

I agree with Lonnie. What many people don't seem to understand is that these people have a totally different mindset to us in the western world. They think in a way that we will never comprehend.

[Oneeyedvic]

"It beggars belief - 7 barbers killed for not SHAVING OFF A MAN'S MOUSTACHE, "

Firstly, have you got anything to back this up - I have googled but can't seem to find anything. Is this a case of someone has mentioned it and so it must be true (a bit like the London Mosque mentioned a few posts down)

Secondly, more people have been killed in this country for being homosexual. Does this mean we are an unenlightened country that is undemocratic?

[boobesque]

FYI i believe that the barbers were killed for cutting off beards, not for refusing to shave moustaches

discussing the intelligence of Arabs just shows that you have been subjected to western propaganda. im sure that all Muslims are terrorists and would kidnap and eat my children if they had the chance because thats what im told to think.

complaining about someone killing for crimes against Islam just shows that you dont understand Islam, but many of us westerners dont understand Islam, thats the problem with us trying to put it right.

i agree with the statement "poles apart from any grand notion of 'democracy' that we might try to inflict upon them." We freed the Afghans from the Taliban by killing thousands of innocent people and now suppress them ourselves "for the greater good". We cant force a particular culture or mindset on other countries. This wont stop the terrorism but will only fuel the fire

Did you know the Taliban freed the Afghans from their former corrupt government? They were like heroes until one Pakistani resident and his friends blew up the world trade centre. IMO this whole war on terror is just future proofing the world for western growth and supremacy.

In some ways, im fine with that. Being a white English, i would rather be the oppressor than the oppressed and having researched Islam i know that there's no such thing as live and let live

The world is not black and white. wake up

[NikkiB]

No race or region has the monopoly on intelligence. Arabs, Persians etc are no more or less brighter than anyone else. A difference is the culture into which a person is born. In my town there is a secondary school that plunges the depths of the league tables and routinely churns out low-achievers and DSS fodder. But amongst this rabble, had their upbringing been different, are artists, doctors, scientists etc.
Similarly, in Iraq and it's neighbouring countries, there are millions of people stymied and brainwashed by a culture that shows little tolerance and has a poor regard for individuality and gender equality. Let's not forget that Egyptians built pyramids and Babylonians held parliaments when ancient Britains were still going "Ug". Egypt and Iraq are now under the yoke of the same religion and their progress is best described as stagnant.
Admittedly, I see news reels of Iraq and despair of people I see as little more than animals and I'm angry at every British serviceman/woman who dies there. I do believe we should get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan and leave them to what they do best - slaughter each other - but I'm acutely aware that there are millions of democracy-loving Iraqis who do not resemble their screaming, effigy-burning brethren in any way. It'ls a difficult one :(

[lovejoy]

Arabs are vermin and should be exterminated, unfortunately the western world is too stupid to realise it and will lose the war against islam.

Welcome to the the world of Allah dimwits

[whiffey]

OEV, sorry I cannot give you a link, but it was a news item on the Today programme (Radio 4) last Thursday or Friday. John Humphries referred to it several times in interviews, and I noted it for that reason.

[Loosehead]

Nikki, just a small point, Islam started in the 7th century ad, the Egyptians and Babalonians etc where at the time a mixture of various religions and obviously not encumbered by their current doctrine. All religion is evil islam is one of the worst.

[NikkiB]

Oneyedvic - I don't think anyone is suggesting that Britain did not have an intolerant past. Many people were persecuted here for their sexuality, gender, ideals or race. But the debate here seems to focus on what's going on today, now, in the world. We should pull out of Iraq now. Because now they like other Islamic countries and communities are going through a phase roughly akin to the Inquisition of Christianity. There were no soldiers to fly to the aid of Europe at that time. We had to drag ourselves out of intolerance and it's like balancing scales going up and down throughout the years, requiring (unfortunately) many battles and many graves before peace breaks out. The Middle East, like Africa, has to find it's own way.

[anotheoldgit]

Since Gordon Brown has stated that he is not joined at the hip to President Bush, and taking into account that Bush is under extreme pressure to withdraw US troops fron Iraq.

Could it be at all possible that we will be left on our own in Iraq, and Brown's excuse for also not withdrawing our troops would be, ' I told you I was not joined to Bush's hip ' ?

[Oneeyedvic]

nikkib - sorry, the reference to the intolerant past was in response to whiffey's reference to the Second World War - I see both as things in the past and not a reason to hate either the UK or the USA.

Personally I also believe that we should pull out of Iraq now as it is not a problem that we can solve.

[boobesque]

were not at war with islam, were at war with terror. but what are the terms of victory?

If we were at war with france then conquering the Parisian capital and holding their parliment would be a good start. what about the war on terror? anybody can be a terrorist and can become one at any time. so what are the terms of victory? genocide?

Its an unwinnable war which is why i believe it has nothing to do with islam or terrorism

[Lonnie]

War against Terror.

We seem to have diversified slightly from the original post, but thats normal in a discussion.

The only way you can win a war against terror, is to have the support of the national civilian population, that clearly can't be done in either Iraq or Afghanistan, so we should get out, and leave them to sort it out themselves.

[kwicky]

Didn't Bin Ladin's neice do a saucy photoshoot and marry into western society. Like it or lump it coming generations of Arabs and Muslims will integrate into western culture. Its no good getting on your high horse and saying Imshee.

[NJOK]

whiffey - you forgot to mention armchairs, mate.

[sp1814]

wiffey

Oil.

That's the reason why we cannot keep out of the region. We have 'economic interests' in the Middle East. The stability of key regions is in our best interests.

We cannot afford for the world oil prices to be dictated by 'enemy states'.

It's oil.

[Kromovaracun]

If it's oil, then why haven't we taken any of it? Everyone always says it's oil, but then complains about high petrol prices.