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Churchill great and wise or Racist
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Was Winston Churchill a great leader who could forecast what would become of Britain, or simply a racist?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles /news/news.html?in_article_id=473368&in_page_i d=1770
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles /news/news.html?in_article_id=473368&in_page_i d=1770
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I don't think Churchill was simply anything.
I know there's a great love of right wing elements to lionise him into some sort of perfect man but in the process they always try to ignore the less admirable part of his character and record.
His part in Gallipoli or the return to the Gold Standard or stuff like this.
Even so you have to judge historical characters, even recent ones by the standards of the day and I'd ideas like this were certainly common currency in his Hay day and only begining to change in the 50s when he made the comments.
Given his famous exchanges with Lady Astor I dare say he'd've been rolling in his grave when Margaret Thatcher became the first woman PM.
Times change so do attitudes
I know there's a great love of right wing elements to lionise him into some sort of perfect man but in the process they always try to ignore the less admirable part of his character and record.
His part in Gallipoli or the return to the Gold Standard or stuff like this.
Even so you have to judge historical characters, even recent ones by the standards of the day and I'd ideas like this were certainly common currency in his Hay day and only begining to change in the 50s when he made the comments.
Given his famous exchanges with Lady Astor I dare say he'd've been rolling in his grave when Margaret Thatcher became the first woman PM.
Times change so do attitudes
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viz-a-viz your reply jake-the-peg, when they first clashed in the House of Commons, Lady Astor, when replying to one of Churchill's speach's said " Mr Churchill, if I were your wife I would poison your coffee", the great man replied "And, Lady Astor, if I were your husband I would drink it, with relish"
what a fantastic put down!!
what a fantastic put down!!
Churchill was very much a man of his time. So what we'd call 'racist' now was really part of a social consensus then which was only just beginning to recede in the 50's. It always annoys me when people bait him for being a racist, given that he was essentially an nineteenth-century man (in an age where such attitudes were considered far less backward or old-fashioned than they are now).
But I digress - was Winston Churchill a great leader? Most certainly: the modern UK owes him a great deal. Does this mean that his word was gospel? Most certainly not. While there's been a rather annoying recent trend to bash Churchill, it's really no better to see him through entirely rose-tinted glasses and thus everything he said or did as totally correct (even if he was a statesman) or infallibly true. For example, upon entering office (in 1951), he took one look at his PMO staff and commented 'drenched in socialism'. Was he right?
I think you also have to remember that Churchill was throughout both of his ministries rather uninterested in domestic affairs (leaving much domestic wartime work to Attlee in his first term, and to Butler in his second).
But I digress - was Winston Churchill a great leader? Most certainly: the modern UK owes him a great deal. Does this mean that his word was gospel? Most certainly not. While there's been a rather annoying recent trend to bash Churchill, it's really no better to see him through entirely rose-tinted glasses and thus everything he said or did as totally correct (even if he was a statesman) or infallibly true. For example, upon entering office (in 1951), he took one look at his PMO staff and commented 'drenched in socialism'. Was he right?
I think you also have to remember that Churchill was throughout both of his ministries rather uninterested in domestic affairs (leaving much domestic wartime work to Attlee in his first term, and to Butler in his second).
A few less publicised Churchill quotes:
"I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes" - Writing as president of the Air Council.
"I do not admit...that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia...by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race...has come in and taken its place" - Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937.
"I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes" - Writing as president of the Air Council.
"I do not admit...that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia...by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race...has come in and taken its place" - Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937.
This incident proves he was neither. Churchill may have voiced his concerns but his actions tell a different story. He decided to do nothing.
"The notebooks reveal that Churchill thought the way round the issue would be to let "public opinion develop a little more before taking action."
Churchill and his cabinet colleagues were dealing with the problems cuased by the end of the British Empire. The context of this discussion was whether to reverse the tradition that British subjects have right of entry to mother-country of Empire. With the ending of the Empire, it was anticipated that there may be a large influx of coloured people and how the general population would regard them.
The right was ended with the Commonwealth Immigrants Act of 1962.
Over 50 years later we are a multicultural society and Churchills fears have been proved to be misplaced.
"The notebooks reveal that Churchill thought the way round the issue would be to let "public opinion develop a little more before taking action."
Churchill and his cabinet colleagues were dealing with the problems cuased by the end of the British Empire. The context of this discussion was whether to reverse the tradition that British subjects have right of entry to mother-country of Empire. With the ending of the Empire, it was anticipated that there may be a large influx of coloured people and how the general population would regard them.
The right was ended with the Commonwealth Immigrants Act of 1962.
Over 50 years later we are a multicultural society and Churchills fears have been proved to be misplaced.
jake-the-peg
Blimey!
He said those things???
Even if you view people in the context of the times they lived in and the social class they came from (he was an aristocrat, wasn't he?), they seem a bit strong.
But then again - he ,b>was bi-polar, (according to latest research) and maybe he was quoted when he was either being visited by 'the black dog' or off his t*ts on tranx.
Blimey!
He said those things???
Even if you view people in the context of the times they lived in and the social class they came from (he was an aristocrat, wasn't he?), they seem a bit strong.
But then again - he ,b>was bi-polar, (according to latest research) and maybe he was quoted when he was either being visited by 'the black dog' or off his t*ts on tranx.
If it wasn't for Churchill we would be speaking German and driving around in VW Beetles.
The man had backbone. Whilst the bloody French were capitulating, Ol' Blighty stuck to its guns and fought them on the beaches etc etc etc.
In total agreement with Lambert, the greatest Briton of all time.
We owe him our lives, our freedom, our Britishness and our culture. It should be a criminal offence to diss Churchill. If he was still leader, do you think we will have the chav culture that befalls near enough every British town? Would we have immigrants killing eachother on a daily basis in London? Would have evil muslims everywhere you look?
No we bloody wouldn't!!!!
The man had backbone. Whilst the bloody French were capitulating, Ol' Blighty stuck to its guns and fought them on the beaches etc etc etc.
In total agreement with Lambert, the greatest Briton of all time.
We owe him our lives, our freedom, our Britishness and our culture. It should be a criminal offence to diss Churchill. If he was still leader, do you think we will have the chav culture that befalls near enough every British town? Would we have immigrants killing eachother on a daily basis in London? Would have evil muslims everywhere you look?
No we bloody wouldn't!!!!
Churchill said a lot of stupid ********* things. He certainly had the ability to say the right things at the right moments, but he also had a sad tendency to say brutally tactless things. Plus they're really not that outrageous when considered in their context. But they (quite rightly) provoke a rather tongue-biting reaction today.
One could easily cast Lloyd George's 'Britain must reserve the right to bomb *******' in a similar light.
One could easily cast Lloyd George's 'Britain must reserve the right to bomb *******' in a similar light.
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sp1814
yep above Shakespeare, when did the bard ever have the faith and the guts to stand up to a tyrant and a bully, no let's get it right, not only did Mr C stand up to Hitler, but he also took on the other facist dictator mussilini when most of the UK Cabinate wanted to surrender after the fall of France.
Churchill was a drunken rouge, but he was the right man at the right time. As he said, Hitler knew he had to break us or lose the war, Churchill gave the country hope and the self belief that not only could we take the 2 dictators on but that we could win, defeat was not even considered.
BTW I'm a ginger too, hope that doesn't disturb you too much me old mucker
yep above Shakespeare, when did the bard ever have the faith and the guts to stand up to a tyrant and a bully, no let's get it right, not only did Mr C stand up to Hitler, but he also took on the other facist dictator mussilini when most of the UK Cabinate wanted to surrender after the fall of France.
Churchill was a drunken rouge, but he was the right man at the right time. As he said, Hitler knew he had to break us or lose the war, Churchill gave the country hope and the self belief that not only could we take the 2 dictators on but that we could win, defeat was not even considered.
BTW I'm a ginger too, hope that doesn't disturb you too much me old mucker
I would vote Shakespeare above Churchill because 450 years after he was born, he's still the greatest playwright the world has ever produced.
His works have informed and inspired for generations...centuries.
Personally, I can't stand Shakespeare (more of a Chaucer man meself), but I'd still vote him above Churchill...the reason?
Well, people all assume that there was only one man to stand up against Hitler.
That's a pretty sad summary of an entire nation. Are we saying that back in the 1930s, there wasn't a single other politician with balls?
However, there was, and will only be, one Shakespeare.
His works have informed and inspired for generations...centuries.
Personally, I can't stand Shakespeare (more of a Chaucer man meself), but I'd still vote him above Churchill...the reason?
Well, people all assume that there was only one man to stand up against Hitler.
That's a pretty sad summary of an entire nation. Are we saying that back in the 1930s, there wasn't a single other politician with balls?
However, there was, and will only be, one Shakespeare.
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