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ChatterBank5 mins ago
'The Good old Days...'
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I've been tossing this around in my head for a while, and I just can't work it out.
The question is, what exact time are people referring to when they harp on about everything being better in 'the good old days'? Seeing as fair few of such folk frequent AB, I thought I'd extend the question.
Be warned, though, I am shamelessly spoilng for an argument and will pounce upon any and all responses like a frenzied rabbit...
The question is, what exact time are people referring to when they harp on about everything being better in 'the good old days'? Seeing as fair few of such folk frequent AB, I thought I'd extend the question.
Be warned, though, I am shamelessly spoilng for an argument and will pounce upon any and all responses like a frenzied rabbit...
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Good Old Days - they were good in some ways, bad in others. Single mothers were ostracised years ago, sexism, homophobia and racism was everywhere. Individualism was frowned upon. Things have swung too far the other way and I wish there was a method of finding middle ground and sticking to it!
For me, the worst aspect of today that makes me nostalgic is the crime rate. It's spiralling out of control today and there seems to be new lows committed all the time.
I've recently seen the first series of Grange Hill on DVD, made in 1978. I'm told the show came in for criticism back then as it was too harsh! Watching it 30 years on I don't think anyone would argue that it was positively quaint compared to the London inner city schools of today.
For me, the worst aspect of today that makes me nostalgic is the crime rate. It's spiralling out of control today and there seems to be new lows committed all the time.
I've recently seen the first series of Grange Hill on DVD, made in 1978. I'm told the show came in for criticism back then as it was too harsh! Watching it 30 years on I don't think anyone would argue that it was positively quaint compared to the London inner city schools of today.
Nikki: Take a look at ." target="_blank"rel="nofollow">http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page5 4.asp">. The trouble with crime stats from the past is that the proportion of crimes not reported (which the BCS includes estimates on) is dramatically higher than today. Hence it seems bigger.
naomi:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id =1766
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id =1751
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/TIM/m00201 9/index.shtml
Not really a marked improvement (and please note that this isn't what I'm arguing), but it does rather weaken your argument of active decline post-NL.
naomi:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id =1766
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id =1751
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/TIM/m00201 9/index.shtml
Not really a marked improvement (and please note that this isn't what I'm arguing), but it does rather weaken your argument of active decline post-NL.
Krom At the risk of being 'Bunny Boiled', but nevertheless having found the courage to creep out of the cat's basket, you have several people here who have experienced adult life before New Labour, and they are telling you how it was before that particular political party came into being. Your answer, however, is to give us statistics - from this government - which has time and time again fed the electorate false information - and you offer those statistics here as fact? Tell me you're not serious - please. I'm sure you have high and very commendable ideals, as most of us here, I would hope, have, but if you look at what's really happening, this bunch are never going to realise them. You're living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Sorry Krom, you seem to be a nice fellow, but you're deluded. This country, and our society, really has changed out of all recognition since New Labour came into being, and it's changed for the worse. Really it has.
naomi, I've been here for decades. Of course the country has changed since Labour came to power - it's been more than 10 years, any country will change in that time. But for me the real changes to society came under Thatcher (not so much under Major); Blair merely extended her policies (and Cameron will do the same if he gets the chance). Kromovaracun has presented the facts; you are offering in return your personal experience. It is possible that your experience is not representative of everyone's.
The good old days are the days when you were aged between about 12 - 22.
During this period, you were not intimidated by dangerous kids (as you were one).
You did not notice the amount of immigrants about (as you were not competing against them for a job or for benefits)
There was no problem with literacy as all you friends could spell the same way that you could.
The economy was fine (as you didn't watch the news and pay attention)
Crime & Punishment was okay (as again you didn't watch the news and didn't know anyone personally who was attacked)
Once you got older, you start being intimidated by children hanging around in groups (forgetting that you did this when you were younger). You start reading more, you apply for jobs. Much easier to say "I can't get a job because of immigrants" that "I am too lazy and won't work for minimum wage". etc etc
During this period, you were not intimidated by dangerous kids (as you were one).
You did not notice the amount of immigrants about (as you were not competing against them for a job or for benefits)
There was no problem with literacy as all you friends could spell the same way that you could.
The economy was fine (as you didn't watch the news and pay attention)
Crime & Punishment was okay (as again you didn't watch the news and didn't know anyone personally who was attacked)
Once you got older, you start being intimidated by children hanging around in groups (forgetting that you did this when you were younger). You start reading more, you apply for jobs. Much easier to say "I can't get a job because of immigrants" that "I am too lazy and won't work for minimum wage". etc etc
Naomi:
For clarification, I'm male.
Regarding your view on my stats, the British Crime Survey is an independent body. Home Office statistics actually demonstrate a rise in crime since the 70s (though as I said in my previous post, this is misleading because it only includes reported crime)
I think your scepticism regarding government statistics is a little overblown. For instance if governments frequently changed information, there would be enormous fluctutations in statistics (given the relatively frequent way in which gov't changes in the UK) and this would be easily visible. Plus if they get caught they're finished.
Remember that the UK has a free press and various Pressure Groups and think-tanks who are constantly scrutinising government statistics through their own independent studies. If we were talking about Castro's Cuba or Putin's Russia you'd have a point, but govt stats in the UK are pretty solid because they're realtively well checked. And it's also not uncommon for gov't departments to commission private organisations to do the research and present their findings.
For clarification, I'm male.
Regarding your view on my stats, the British Crime Survey is an independent body. Home Office statistics actually demonstrate a rise in crime since the 70s (though as I said in my previous post, this is misleading because it only includes reported crime)
I think your scepticism regarding government statistics is a little overblown. For instance if governments frequently changed information, there would be enormous fluctutations in statistics (given the relatively frequent way in which gov't changes in the UK) and this would be easily visible. Plus if they get caught they're finished.
Remember that the UK has a free press and various Pressure Groups and think-tanks who are constantly scrutinising government statistics through their own independent studies. If we were talking about Castro's Cuba or Putin's Russia you'd have a point, but govt stats in the UK are pretty solid because they're realtively well checked. And it's also not uncommon for gov't departments to commission private organisations to do the research and present their findings.
To get the thread back on-topic...
This is how the 'Olden Days' situation looks to me thus far. Corrections will be appreciated:
We've got one vote for 'The Good Old Days' being pre-New Labour (there a might have been another one somewhere but I can't be arsed to check)
We've got one vote for 'The Good Old Days' being 1979-1990
And various votes for 'The Good Old Days' being various peoples' childhoods.
Where's AOG when you need him?
This is how the 'Olden Days' situation looks to me thus far. Corrections will be appreciated:
We've got one vote for 'The Good Old Days' being pre-New Labour (there a might have been another one somewhere but I can't be arsed to check)
We've got one vote for 'The Good Old Days' being 1979-1990
And various votes for 'The Good Old Days' being various peoples' childhoods.
Where's AOG when you need him?
jno You're absolutely right. The changes did begin with Mrs Thatcher. However, this country's decline has accelerated since then, and New Labour has done nothing to reverse it or improve it. In fact, it's exacerbated the problems caused by the Thatcher government. And anyway, we can't go on forever blaming a previous government. New Labour have had years to improve the situation, and they haven't done it.
Vic I'm not talking from a child's perspective. I was well and truly grown up when New Labour surfaced, so I'm fully aware of its effects on society. However, if you want to talk about childhood, kids may have bullied others, but they didn't stab them or shoot them, so they weren't 'dangerous' as you suggest and there was no problem with literacy because children were properly educated. Additionally, there weren't so many immigrants, and competition for jobs wasn't an issue, and criminals weren't allowed to remain in society, but were punished appropriately. Incidentally my parents wouldn't have allowed me to hang around the streets - and even as a child, I listened to the news every morning before I went to school.
People can go on saying "Well, it wasn't really any different before", but the simple fact is it was different before New Labour. Those defending them appear to have their heads firmly planted in the sand - they don't want to see what's happening. I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone who knew life before New Labour can defend them at all. We had such high hopes when they won their first election. Tony Blair was like a breath of fresh air, but how wrong we were. What they've done to this country, and what they'd allowed this country, and this society to become, is indefensible. What a shower! And I voted for them! Shame on me!
Vic I'm not talking from a child's perspective. I was well and truly grown up when New Labour surfaced, so I'm fully aware of its effects on society. However, if you want to talk about childhood, kids may have bullied others, but they didn't stab them or shoot them, so they weren't 'dangerous' as you suggest and there was no problem with literacy because children were properly educated. Additionally, there weren't so many immigrants, and competition for jobs wasn't an issue, and criminals weren't allowed to remain in society, but were punished appropriately. Incidentally my parents wouldn't have allowed me to hang around the streets - and even as a child, I listened to the news every morning before I went to school.
People can go on saying "Well, it wasn't really any different before", but the simple fact is it was different before New Labour. Those defending them appear to have their heads firmly planted in the sand - they don't want to see what's happening. I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone who knew life before New Labour can defend them at all. We had such high hopes when they won their first election. Tony Blair was like a breath of fresh air, but how wrong we were. What they've done to this country, and what they'd allowed this country, and this society to become, is indefensible. What a shower! And I voted for them! Shame on me!
Krom Government statistics are manipulated. For example, this government doesn't know how many immigrants are in the country and yet they produce statistics which we're all meant to take seriously. NHS figures are another example, with patients being shunted from one hospital department to the next in order that the right figures might be produced. New Labour is a complete and utter shambles - and personally I don't believe a word they say.
If AOG does surface, I'm sure he'd tell you that at least people were well-mannered and had respect for others in his day - which certainly isn't true now. As I said, take a look at Chatterbank. That will also give you an insight into the standards of literacy we now enjoy.
I wouldn't quote specific years for my idea of the Good Old Days - I would simply say pre-New Labour.
If AOG does surface, I'm sure he'd tell you that at least people were well-mannered and had respect for others in his day - which certainly isn't true now. As I said, take a look at Chatterbank. That will also give you an insight into the standards of literacy we now enjoy.
I wouldn't quote specific years for my idea of the Good Old Days - I would simply say pre-New Labour.
With regard to the manners argument I have to say (maybe it's a northern thing) but most people I deal with are polite, I'm very strict about my (and other peoples) manners I deal with about 1200 people a week, I only have to remind about 5 people (if that) a week about it and usually they apologise immediately.
I disagree with Naomi quite profoundly things really are'nt that bad and I think we'd agree that the story overall is patchy.
The previous Tory administration was far worse than this, they privatised the cleaning of hospitals, they privatised the prisons, they sold off the nurses and police housing, they sold off council housing, privatised the utilities, sold off the buses, sold off the trains, sold the track separately, they destroyed the merchant navy, the ship building industry, the coal industry, the steel industry and a whole lot more besides, so from a very low starting point we've gotten to where we are, don't forget the minimum wage Tories would never allow that. As a child I used to watch the news so many jobs going here so many jobs going there (Not The 9 O'clock News did a sketch about it) and I used to wonder what's going to happen to me when I grow up.
But they were the good old days for me, because I was young.
I disagree with Naomi quite profoundly things really are'nt that bad and I think we'd agree that the story overall is patchy.
The previous Tory administration was far worse than this, they privatised the cleaning of hospitals, they privatised the prisons, they sold off the nurses and police housing, they sold off council housing, privatised the utilities, sold off the buses, sold off the trains, sold the track separately, they destroyed the merchant navy, the ship building industry, the coal industry, the steel industry and a whole lot more besides, so from a very low starting point we've gotten to where we are, don't forget the minimum wage Tories would never allow that. As a child I used to watch the news so many jobs going here so many jobs going there (Not The 9 O'clock News did a sketch about it) and I used to wonder what's going to happen to me when I grow up.
But they were the good old days for me, because I was young.
For example, this government doesn't know how many immigrants are in the country and yet they produce statistics which we're all meant to take seriously.
They give statistics on immigration based on legal immigration. They're two different things. That doesn't mean the stats aren't true - they're perfectly applicable if you're talking about legal immigration, but - like the crime ones - the government can only give stats for officially recorded ones (i.e. they can't measure illegals because it's impossible and won't estimate becase they'll look bad). That's a far cry from outright fabrication.
NHS figures are another example, with patients being shunted from one hospital department to the next in order that the right figures might be produced.
Link?
Is Chatterbank representative of the whole population? What do you mean exactly when you say 'respect for others'? I certainly respect my friends and behave toward them accordingly. And there's always been hooligans (I'll post some evidence in the next post).
They give statistics on immigration based on legal immigration. They're two different things. That doesn't mean the stats aren't true - they're perfectly applicable if you're talking about legal immigration, but - like the crime ones - the government can only give stats for officially recorded ones (i.e. they can't measure illegals because it's impossible and won't estimate becase they'll look bad). That's a far cry from outright fabrication.
NHS figures are another example, with patients being shunted from one hospital department to the next in order that the right figures might be produced.
Link?
Is Chatterbank representative of the whole population? What do you mean exactly when you say 'respect for others'? I certainly respect my friends and behave toward them accordingly. And there's always been hooligans (I'll post some evidence in the next post).
I said I'd give some evidence of hooliganism from the good old days....
From the Pall Mall Gazette, February 1901:
'The constable in certain districts is looked upon as the common enemy whom it is right to kick and beat whenever that can be done with safety.'
The Daily Mail also ran a headline in 1898, He Ate a Policeman ('he' being a crocodile...).
In the same year, the Mail reported the story of a 'South London Cowboy' lassoing cyclists.
And also reported the news of a couple of children who broke into their school and 'completely wrecked the furnishings'.
From the Pall Mall Gazette, February 1901:
'The constable in certain districts is looked upon as the common enemy whom it is right to kick and beat whenever that can be done with safety.'
The Daily Mail also ran a headline in 1898, He Ate a Policeman ('he' being a crocodile...).
In the same year, the Mail reported the story of a 'South London Cowboy' lassoing cyclists.
And also reported the news of a couple of children who broke into their school and 'completely wrecked the furnishings'.
123 As I said, how long can people go on blaming the previous government? This government have had years to change things, and they haven't - they've only made it worse.
Krom No, of course this government doesn't mislead the electorate. If you're happy to believe that, and you're happy with the state of this country, then so be it.
Krom No, of course this government doesn't mislead the electorate. If you're happy to believe that, and you're happy with the state of this country, then so be it.
competition for jobs wasn't an issue
Because more people have them (see p.3)
Not a government report, either.
Note that I'm not arguing that this is necessarily the work of New Labour (in fact this document seems to thank the Tories). I'm just attacking the view of active decline or, in keeping with the thread's topic, 'the Good old days' being pre-NL.
Because more people have them (see p.3)
Not a government report, either.
Note that I'm not arguing that this is necessarily the work of New Labour (in fact this document seems to thank the Tories). I'm just attacking the view of active decline or, in keeping with the thread's topic, 'the Good old days' being pre-NL.
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