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maggie
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just watching a britain...a modern history on bbc2 its mainly about maggie thatcher she actually caused anarchy on the streets of britain,do you think she was a heroine for britain or a horror?my opinion is that she was the latter..............................
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brought chaos to the transport system if you don't believe me look up K.I.T.S (Kirkby Integrated Train System) this offered the blue print for public transport throughout the country.
Remember it was the Major govt. who handled the details of this.
Speaking of blueprints, the privatisation of the electricity industry has served as blueprint for privatisations in several foreign countries. Guess they disagree with you, huh?
The privatisation of the Steel industry also yieled massive benefits for the industry (remember industries exist to produce things - not employ people). Far from disaster.
You yourself have spoken of the immense success BT went on to make as a private company.
Remember it was the Major govt. who handled the details of this.
Speaking of blueprints, the privatisation of the electricity industry has served as blueprint for privatisations in several foreign countries. Guess they disagree with you, huh?
The privatisation of the Steel industry also yieled massive benefits for the industry (remember industries exist to produce things - not employ people). Far from disaster.
You yourself have spoken of the immense success BT went on to make as a private company.
KITS was a bus initiative because of dereg buses did'nt work in conjunction with trains, they competed against them (you can be forgiven for not knowing much about it, few people do, a lifetime almost working on public transport).
Sheffield made alot of steel it does'nt anymore, our steel mills were modern (the last Bessemer burn was in 1974) but with prices low (steel is very cyclcal in it's pricing nature) Thatcher closed them down, the Germans did'nt.
The profits of BT could of, should of, would of benefited the country greatly.
People used to complain about Blairs presidential style of government, dissenters in the her cabinet were called "wets" hows that for honourable?
How about the wealth of the nation and good financial governance?
Who took us into the E.R.M?
Another successful Thatcher policy....
Sheffield made alot of steel it does'nt anymore, our steel mills were modern (the last Bessemer burn was in 1974) but with prices low (steel is very cyclcal in it's pricing nature) Thatcher closed them down, the Germans did'nt.
The profits of BT could of, should of, would of benefited the country greatly.
People used to complain about Blairs presidential style of government, dissenters in the her cabinet were called "wets" hows that for honourable?
How about the wealth of the nation and good financial governance?
Who took us into the E.R.M?
Another successful Thatcher policy....
-- answer removed --
Everton: Just letting you know I've read your answer. The reason I've not yet responded is that I want to collect some evidence to support my steel industry point. Trouble is that for the next few days I'm strapped for time for doing that as they're crammed with A2s. Will respond when I get around to it.
Yeah, because prices never rose before privatisation...
In September 2000, John Blundell (director-general of the Institute of Economic Affairs) reckoned that gas consumers have 'seen their bills cut by �1 billion since competition was introduced'.
The profits of BT could of, should of, would of benefited the country greatly.
BT's profits largely resulted from price cuts in the telecoms market and from massively increased public investment. Both of these happened thanks to privatisation.
On the steel industry: a lot of the job-cuts actually happend pre-privatisation and benefitted the industry enormously. The author of this report argues that "the strategy paid off. BSC, which had been losing up to �4m a day, was making profits of �100m a year by 1986." I will grant, though, that this was not a victory of privatisation itself.
The gross output of the metal manufacturing industry increased by over �32bn. in the years 1989 (just after privatisation) to 1997. Compare this to a growth of �13bn 1973-83. (Lloyd, 'Empire, Welfare State, Europe').
When in the early 80s British Steel was making a loss in several areas, by 1989/90, its pre-tax profit was �733 million. Today the British steel industry is widely regarded as one of the best in Europe.
My personal book collection doesn't have much detail on the ERM (I confess my knowledge of it doesn't extend much further than simple awareness of it), and you've got me all interested now (and I've got some time on my hands) so I'll go to the library in the morning and do some research there.
In September 2000, John Blundell (director-general of the Institute of Economic Affairs) reckoned that gas consumers have 'seen their bills cut by �1 billion since competition was introduced'.
The profits of BT could of, should of, would of benefited the country greatly.
BT's profits largely resulted from price cuts in the telecoms market and from massively increased public investment. Both of these happened thanks to privatisation.
On the steel industry: a lot of the job-cuts actually happend pre-privatisation and benefitted the industry enormously. The author of this report argues that "the strategy paid off. BSC, which had been losing up to �4m a day, was making profits of �100m a year by 1986." I will grant, though, that this was not a victory of privatisation itself.
The gross output of the metal manufacturing industry increased by over �32bn. in the years 1989 (just after privatisation) to 1997. Compare this to a growth of �13bn 1973-83. (Lloyd, 'Empire, Welfare State, Europe').
When in the early 80s British Steel was making a loss in several areas, by 1989/90, its pre-tax profit was �733 million. Today the British steel industry is widely regarded as one of the best in Europe.
My personal book collection doesn't have much detail on the ERM (I confess my knowledge of it doesn't extend much further than simple awareness of it), and you've got me all interested now (and I've got some time on my hands) so I'll go to the library in the morning and do some research there.
The point I'm trying to stress to you is that our European partners faced the same difficulties but maintained an industrial presence (French tanneries apart) why? How?
Thatcher is a polarising figure (even today) the curious thing is with her (even at the time of her leaving) is that the further away people are from her, the more popular she becomes.
I see her policies wreaking havoc in our society today and they will do for years to come, alot of people who lived and worked (if you were lucky) under Thatcher will never warm to her. Myself included.
Thatcher is a polarising figure (even today) the curious thing is with her (even at the time of her leaving) is that the further away people are from her, the more popular she becomes.
I see her policies wreaking havoc in our society today and they will do for years to come, alot of people who lived and worked (if you were lucky) under Thatcher will never warm to her. Myself included.
I'm not trying to warm you, I'm arguing because I like having my views challenged.
that our European partners faced the same difficulties but maintained an industrial presence (French tanneries apart) why? How?
But that's not necessarily a positive long-term thing. France's industrial growth in 2005 was, what? 0.2%? (This figure is from memory so I may be slightly off). Note that both France and Germany have elected more 'Thatcherite' (though admittedly less extreme) governments with promises to liberalise the economy and weaken unions. They might have maintained their industry, but the UK came out of it much better off.
Plus I'm not sure Europe is a valid comparison as in several places in the UK at the time - like the steelmills or coalmines that were closed down - industrial areas were making losses, so it made sense to shut them down and import for the benefit of those industries as a whole. I don't think the same can be said of Europe but I'm not certain.
I see her policies wreaking havoc in our society today
Example, please. One that leads directly back to Thatcher.
that our European partners faced the same difficulties but maintained an industrial presence (French tanneries apart) why? How?
But that's not necessarily a positive long-term thing. France's industrial growth in 2005 was, what? 0.2%? (This figure is from memory so I may be slightly off). Note that both France and Germany have elected more 'Thatcherite' (though admittedly less extreme) governments with promises to liberalise the economy and weaken unions. They might have maintained their industry, but the UK came out of it much better off.
Plus I'm not sure Europe is a valid comparison as in several places in the UK at the time - like the steelmills or coalmines that were closed down - industrial areas were making losses, so it made sense to shut them down and import for the benefit of those industries as a whole. I don't think the same can be said of Europe but I'm not certain.
I see her policies wreaking havoc in our society today
Example, please. One that leads directly back to Thatcher.
The housing crisis?
The unavailability of affordable, quality rented accomadation.
Dirty hospitals?
The contracting out of hospital cleaning destroyed front line infection control.
Deregulation of the buses?
Destroyed public transport forcing people into cars.
Pensioner poverty?
Took away the link between pensions and earnings.
Destruction of the mines?
We now import coal from Australia, and (I think) we still subsidise nuclear.
For generalities (admittedly more dubious and debatable) social cohesion, the sense of belonging to a certain area "there's no such thing as communities, just groups of individuals" Thatcher.
The break up of the family, get on ya bike, Tebbit.
Don't be seduced by old Tory spin they used to boom and bust the economy and then on the upswing they'd say "our economy is growing faster than..." they'd seek to overlook how far down they'd taken us.
Growth may have been small in heavy industry abroad but at least (we both agree) they have an industry to grow. Who's benefitted from this destruction? Certainly not the people who worked there, or lived near these factories.
They even privatised prisons.
The unavailability of affordable, quality rented accomadation.
Dirty hospitals?
The contracting out of hospital cleaning destroyed front line infection control.
Deregulation of the buses?
Destroyed public transport forcing people into cars.
Pensioner poverty?
Took away the link between pensions and earnings.
Destruction of the mines?
We now import coal from Australia, and (I think) we still subsidise nuclear.
For generalities (admittedly more dubious and debatable) social cohesion, the sense of belonging to a certain area "there's no such thing as communities, just groups of individuals" Thatcher.
The break up of the family, get on ya bike, Tebbit.
Don't be seduced by old Tory spin they used to boom and bust the economy and then on the upswing they'd say "our economy is growing faster than..." they'd seek to overlook how far down they'd taken us.
Growth may have been small in heavy industry abroad but at least (we both agree) they have an industry to grow. Who's benefitted from this destruction? Certainly not the people who worked there, or lived near these factories.
They even privatised prisons.
The housing crisis?
Fair enough.
Dirty hospitals?
I don't see how you can link this one directly back to Thatcher. Remember as I showed earlier that NHS spending continued to increase.
Deregulation of the buses?
Havoc? Really? The effect of this seems to have been variable across the country (bearing in mind all I have for this is testimony of other people, and I've heard both very positive things and very negative things). I think this is a bit of a weak thing to hold pure malice against someone considering the overall general benefit to the country she brought.
Pensioner poverty?
Gordon Brown.
Destruction of the mines?
We now import coal from Australia,
I've demonstrated time and again that this was both inevitable, necessary and desirable. Our mines were in decline and - unlike those abroad - weren't going to come back up for reasons I've stated earlier. Importation, as I've shown repeatedly, made sense.
"there's no such thing as society, just groups of individuals" Thatcher
This quote is actually taken severely out of context.
What Thatcher meant by this was that 'society' as it's defined as a solution to all problems doesn't exist. She was saying you can't just turn to society (ergo, the government) for every problem. Which was actually a reasonable response to the question she was asked. She wasn't saying society doesn't exist.
The thing about 'boom and bust' policy, while the bust was poorly handled, it does still result in a general upward curve .
Fair enough.
Dirty hospitals?
I don't see how you can link this one directly back to Thatcher. Remember as I showed earlier that NHS spending continued to increase.
Deregulation of the buses?
Havoc? Really? The effect of this seems to have been variable across the country (bearing in mind all I have for this is testimony of other people, and I've heard both very positive things and very negative things). I think this is a bit of a weak thing to hold pure malice against someone considering the overall general benefit to the country she brought.
Pensioner poverty?
Gordon Brown.
Destruction of the mines?
We now import coal from Australia,
I've demonstrated time and again that this was both inevitable, necessary and desirable. Our mines were in decline and - unlike those abroad - weren't going to come back up for reasons I've stated earlier. Importation, as I've shown repeatedly, made sense.
"there's no such thing as society, just groups of individuals" Thatcher
This quote is actually taken severely out of context.
What Thatcher meant by this was that 'society' as it's defined as a solution to all problems doesn't exist. She was saying you can't just turn to society (ergo, the government) for every problem. Which was actually a reasonable response to the question she was asked. She wasn't saying society doesn't exist.
The thing about 'boom and bust' policy, while the bust was poorly handled, it does still result in a general upward curve .
Growth may have been small in heavy industry abroad but at least (we both agree) they have an industry to grow.
But what good has it done them? In '05, Germany had the highest unemployment since the Weimar. Today both France and Germany still have higher unemployment than the UK. According to this week's Economist. the UK unemployment rate is 5.4%(Apr), while in France it's 7.4%(Q1) and in Germany almost 8%.
The UK's economic growth overall has also been consistently above that of France and Germany (even considering Germany has a bigger population than we do).
Fact is, in the long run, we've come out of it better.
And I've still forgotten to look at the ERM. Jeesh. Bluddy distracting me, everton.
But what good has it done them? In '05, Germany had the highest unemployment since the Weimar. Today both France and Germany still have higher unemployment than the UK. According to this week's Economist. the UK unemployment rate is 5.4%(Apr), while in France it's 7.4%(Q1) and in Germany almost 8%.
The UK's economic growth overall has also been consistently above that of France and Germany (even considering Germany has a bigger population than we do).
Fact is, in the long run, we've come out of it better.
And I've still forgotten to look at the ERM. Jeesh. Bluddy distracting me, everton.
To me this is what Thatcher's 'balance sheet' looks like:
Bad:
Health - disastrous (if well-meaning) management reform
Housing (though cheap credit has contributed to this, Thatcher must take responsibility for the extremity of it)
Short-term unemployment and economic hardship
Variable transport legacy
Good:
Long-term sustainable rise in employment and prosperity
Modernised economy
Breaking of Union power
Several key industries/utilities (though I concede not all) more efficient and in some cases cheaper (see Blundell's estimate earlier).
I won't deny the bad, but the good simply seems more sweeping, more broad benefits while (exempting housing and health which I'm happy to condemn) the bad relate mostly to single issues. I think if you focus on them you're ignoring quite a few very important overall benefits.
Bad:
Health - disastrous (if well-meaning) management reform
Housing (though cheap credit has contributed to this, Thatcher must take responsibility for the extremity of it)
Short-term unemployment and economic hardship
Variable transport legacy
Good:
Long-term sustainable rise in employment and prosperity
Modernised economy
Breaking of Union power
Several key industries/utilities (though I concede not all) more efficient and in some cases cheaper (see Blundell's estimate earlier).
I won't deny the bad, but the good simply seems more sweeping, more broad benefits while (exempting housing and health which I'm happy to condemn) the bad relate mostly to single issues. I think if you focus on them you're ignoring quite a few very important overall benefits.
The problem for you is that you did'nt live through Thatcher, so when you say short term unemployment you view it as part of economic policy you neglect to mention that each one of these are real people, effectively you sound (oddly) like an 80s synonym as sung by UB40's song "1 in 10" you are an exponent of Major's stated and rejected economic aim of "yes it hurt yes it worked".
The cure nearly killed the patient, the reality (for me anyway) was at the age of 11 to sit watching the news and seeing a tally of jobs created and jobs lost and then to wonder what's going to happen to me when I'm older. These tallies were kept daily and the numbers simply staggering. Not the 9 O'Clock News did 2 spoof sketches on the subject "Failed in Wales" and a News Desk reporting on a paper boy getting a job in Wolverhampton (or somewhere like that) as read by Rowan Atkinson.
Coal is still needed for power (and will be for some time to come) environmentally and economically how it can it be justifiable to transport it on ships six or seven times a month from the other side of the world?
Germany was often used by Tories as an example Tory economic policy but Germany underwent a kind of latter day anschluss when the wall came down, this placed a huge burden on the German exchequer (and still does to this day) a large proprtion (if not the majority) of German unemployed are in the former Eastern Bloc.
There is no variabilty in their public transport policy as their policy was simple one, buy a car. Buses were modern, reliable, well used and well maintained. My firm is a multi national one and they have not invested a single penny in this fleet since the last century (circa 1997), and as for safety...
Contracting out hospital cleaning has been an unmitigated and costly disaster, people have died as a result.
The cure nearly killed the patient, the reality (for me anyway) was at the age of 11 to sit watching the news and seeing a tally of jobs created and jobs lost and then to wonder what's going to happen to me when I'm older. These tallies were kept daily and the numbers simply staggering. Not the 9 O'Clock News did 2 spoof sketches on the subject "Failed in Wales" and a News Desk reporting on a paper boy getting a job in Wolverhampton (or somewhere like that) as read by Rowan Atkinson.
Coal is still needed for power (and will be for some time to come) environmentally and economically how it can it be justifiable to transport it on ships six or seven times a month from the other side of the world?
Germany was often used by Tories as an example Tory economic policy but Germany underwent a kind of latter day anschluss when the wall came down, this placed a huge burden on the German exchequer (and still does to this day) a large proprtion (if not the majority) of German unemployed are in the former Eastern Bloc.
There is no variabilty in their public transport policy as their policy was simple one, buy a car. Buses were modern, reliable, well used and well maintained. My firm is a multi national one and they have not invested a single penny in this fleet since the last century (circa 1997), and as for safety...
Contracting out hospital cleaning has been an unmitigated and costly disaster, people have died as a result.
Pensioner poverty, they did remove the link with earnings and the best advice they could give in the winter was for Edwina Currie to say wear a hat in the house or even put your coat on! And before you talk about the tax raid on pension funds look at the payment holidays the Post Office (and others) took with their scheme, look at the asset stripping antics of Tiny Rowland's Hanson Trust and James Goldsmith's acquisitions their companies were major forces in the stock market back then, they faded considerably after they died, why?
When you look at the economics of Britain at the last count there were 2 million casual labourers in the EU 1 million of whom were in Britain. There is no long term prosperity in casual labour.
As your own statistics demonstrated earlier, Thatcher did nothing to alleviate poverty in this country (young or old) their income stagnated whilst the wealthiest saw huge rises in spending power.
When you look at the economics of Britain at the last count there were 2 million casual labourers in the EU 1 million of whom were in Britain. There is no long term prosperity in casual labour.
As your own statistics demonstrated earlier, Thatcher did nothing to alleviate poverty in this country (young or old) their income stagnated whilst the wealthiest saw huge rises in spending power.
Germany underwent a kind of latter day anschluss when the wall came down
Take North Rhine-Westphalia. In Duisburg, note that unemployment is 13%. A trade boom has reduced it recently from 17%. A large part of the unemployment is in the east, but you can't just write it off. And you ignored France, which also has higher unemployment - and has done for a very, very, long time - than we do.
Also, note that Duisburg's last coal pit is due to be closed soon. They're also deciding to phase out coal subsidies. Just an interesting aside.
I've explained before why it makes more sense to import: UK coal now is much deeper to dig for than it is abroad, so therefore costs more to get. Therefore it's actually cheaper - and therefore better for the coal industry - for people to import. If people start doing this, coal pits start making losses - in which case it simply makes sense to shut them.
There is no long term prosperity in casual labour.
The facts disagree with you there: We've had far more long-term prosperity than either France or Germany. Or Italy. Or Spain. Or...
Take North Rhine-Westphalia. In Duisburg, note that unemployment is 13%. A trade boom has reduced it recently from 17%. A large part of the unemployment is in the east, but you can't just write it off. And you ignored France, which also has higher unemployment - and has done for a very, very, long time - than we do.
Also, note that Duisburg's last coal pit is due to be closed soon. They're also deciding to phase out coal subsidies. Just an interesting aside.
I've explained before why it makes more sense to import: UK coal now is much deeper to dig for than it is abroad, so therefore costs more to get. Therefore it's actually cheaper - and therefore better for the coal industry - for people to import. If people start doing this, coal pits start making losses - in which case it simply makes sense to shut them.
There is no long term prosperity in casual labour.
The facts disagree with you there: We've had far more long-term prosperity than either France or Germany. Or Italy. Or Spain. Or...
The problem for you is that you did'nt live through Thatcher,
I'm well aware they're real people, I just look either side of it as well. Before: I can see people who were constantly having their services blockaded, hospitals picketed, consistently high inflation and what have you. I've said much earlier in the thread that I recognise the hardship people went through. But unlike before - for the vast majority - it went away in the long-term. Did you live through the '70s, as well? Because according to people who did (and the evidence that's been left behind), it wasn't exactly a paradise.
Not the 9 O'Clock News did 2 spoof sketches on the subject "Failed in Wales" and a News Desk reporting on a paper boy getting a job in Wolverhampton (or somewhere like that) as read by Rowan Atkinson.
Oh... Good...
Contracting out hospital cleaning has been an unmitigated and costly disaster
I have said before that I think her health policy was stoopid.
Edwina Currie to say wear a hat in the house or even put your coat on!
I can remember New Labour saying a similar thing a few years ago (granted I was very young and I can't remember exactly what it was about). Also what did Labour do for people who had their electricity, utilities services blocked? Govt. ignorance of hardship really isn't anything new, there was just more of it to be ignorant of in the 80s. Which sharply declined in the long run.
Then there's a considerable part of your second post that I don't understand.
I'm well aware they're real people, I just look either side of it as well. Before: I can see people who were constantly having their services blockaded, hospitals picketed, consistently high inflation and what have you. I've said much earlier in the thread that I recognise the hardship people went through. But unlike before - for the vast majority - it went away in the long-term. Did you live through the '70s, as well? Because according to people who did (and the evidence that's been left behind), it wasn't exactly a paradise.
Not the 9 O'Clock News did 2 spoof sketches on the subject "Failed in Wales" and a News Desk reporting on a paper boy getting a job in Wolverhampton (or somewhere like that) as read by Rowan Atkinson.
Oh... Good...
Contracting out hospital cleaning has been an unmitigated and costly disaster
I have said before that I think her health policy was stoopid.
Edwina Currie to say wear a hat in the house or even put your coat on!
I can remember New Labour saying a similar thing a few years ago (granted I was very young and I can't remember exactly what it was about). Also what did Labour do for people who had their electricity, utilities services blocked? Govt. ignorance of hardship really isn't anything new, there was just more of it to be ignorant of in the 80s. Which sharply declined in the long run.
Then there's a considerable part of your second post that I don't understand.
As your own statistics demonstrated earlier, Thatcher did nothing to alleviate poverty in this country (young or old) their income stagnated whilst the wealthiest saw huge rises in spending power.
It didn't stagnate, it just stayed the same. What I was trying to disprove with those statistics was that the poor actively got poorer - which they didn't.
And as for the accusation that she did nothing for them - they had more stable utilities & services, they had far less inflation (apart from the global recession at the end which is hardly Thatcher's fault), they were paying less tax. And in the long-term they had sustainably high prosperity and good economic growth. Which is more than anyone did for 'em in the 70s.
When you talk about prosperity, who benefits? The worker on the ground can't save for a pension or jam tomorrow because they need to buy bread today.
Pensioner poverty the winter fuel allowance has helped pensioners considerably, look at the payment holidays enjoyed by company schemes in the interim. Modern Tories say that the government should of put some money aside for more difficult conditions, the self same Tories who approved payment holidays and asset stripping by their friends (Rowland and Goldsmith).
We'll draw the line on health as we agree, but look up Jonathan Zito and see just how bad these policies could be.
The coal subsidies being phased out is a much more sensible solution economically, we went from making coal to not within years, if they'd been more gradual the impact would have been lessened.
The Not the 9 O' Clock News was just an example of art imitating reality, if you want to understand the 80s it's a good reference point.
The 70s were'nt perfect we had the oil crisis amongst other things. What I'm trying to stress to you is that the whole of Europe faced the issues without fracturing the fabric of the nation, I don't get the bit about the blocking of utilities, then or now?
Thatcher goverened for the benefit of the rich, not the poor. I think we may agree on that.
Pensioner poverty the winter fuel allowance has helped pensioners considerably, look at the payment holidays enjoyed by company schemes in the interim. Modern Tories say that the government should of put some money aside for more difficult conditions, the self same Tories who approved payment holidays and asset stripping by their friends (Rowland and Goldsmith).
We'll draw the line on health as we agree, but look up Jonathan Zito and see just how bad these policies could be.
The coal subsidies being phased out is a much more sensible solution economically, we went from making coal to not within years, if they'd been more gradual the impact would have been lessened.
The Not the 9 O' Clock News was just an example of art imitating reality, if you want to understand the 80s it's a good reference point.
The 70s were'nt perfect we had the oil crisis amongst other things. What I'm trying to stress to you is that the whole of Europe faced the issues without fracturing the fabric of the nation, I don't get the bit about the blocking of utilities, then or now?
Thatcher goverened for the benefit of the rich, not the poor. I think we may agree on that.
