ChatterBank0 min ago
Where's the respect gone?
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/polic e-attacked-by-mob-in-croydon-after-asking-teen age-girl-to-pick-up-litter-she-had-dropped/Art icle/200807315046145?lpos=UK%2BNews_2&lid=ARTI CLE_15046145_police%2Battacked%2Bby%2Bmob%2Bin %2Bcroydon%2Bafter%2Basking%2Bteenage%2Bgirl%2 Bto%2Bpick%2Bup%2Blitter%2Bshe%2Bhad%2Bdropped
Do you think we can start to turnaround the feeling of fear over tackling anti-social behaviour and regaining respect for others?
Do you think we can start to turnaround the feeling of fear over tackling anti-social behaviour and regaining respect for others?
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I said in a post a while ago that alot of people seem to only have 2 speeds (annoying and insane) the escalation of minor disputes is something I've experienced all to often.
I love that word "education" you can't educate someone who is unwilling to learn or yield, all you can do is put them in jail and try and do something with them there. Otherwise just keep locking em up when they reoffend.
We've tried the softly softly approach and it blatantly has'nt worked. Prison were told does'nt work (works for me) were told it fails the offender (ala 1970s thinking) but reoffending rates are already very high.
The other week we were told that we lock up more juveniles than any other country "even though youth crime was falling" EVEN THOUGH? Surely that means the policy works?
If you lock up a teenaged thug for 5 years, it may be too late for him already, but his peers may think twice. And that (to me) is success.
Cameron said build more prisons, he will win votes with that policy.
I love that word "education" you can't educate someone who is unwilling to learn or yield, all you can do is put them in jail and try and do something with them there. Otherwise just keep locking em up when they reoffend.
We've tried the softly softly approach and it blatantly has'nt worked. Prison were told does'nt work (works for me) were told it fails the offender (ala 1970s thinking) but reoffending rates are already very high.
The other week we were told that we lock up more juveniles than any other country "even though youth crime was falling" EVEN THOUGH? Surely that means the policy works?
If you lock up a teenaged thug for 5 years, it may be too late for him already, but his peers may think twice. And that (to me) is success.
Cameron said build more prisons, he will win votes with that policy.
Yes, you are right - it is obviously not working.
Oh hang on, crime levels are actually down. Not people's perceptions, not media hype, but fact.
So, what isn't working? The press latching on to stories, the populous ageing and being terrified by pretty much anyone under 25?
Obviously, this sort of anti social activity is completely new. Never before have criminals attacked police.
The criminal underworld in the 50s, 60s and 70s did not exist.
When people like the Krays were locked up, all the other criminals started getting proper jobs.
You accuse me of not living in the real world - I accuse you of reading far too much into stories and looking at the past with rose tinted glasses.
Oh hang on, crime levels are actually down. Not people's perceptions, not media hype, but fact.
So, what isn't working? The press latching on to stories, the populous ageing and being terrified by pretty much anyone under 25?
Obviously, this sort of anti social activity is completely new. Never before have criminals attacked police.
The criminal underworld in the 50s, 60s and 70s did not exist.
When people like the Krays were locked up, all the other criminals started getting proper jobs.
You accuse me of not living in the real world - I accuse you of reading far too much into stories and looking at the past with rose tinted glasses.
You're being silly. You know exactly what I'm talking about. actually, on this occasion I don't.
Are you talking about higher sentencing?
Because I really don't think that will have much of an impact. Most people like this are committing crimes because they don't think they will get caught.
If increased sentencing did have much of an affect, why does America still have a high murder rate?
California introduced a 'three strikes' policy - if you were found guilty of two offences (including shoplifting etc), if you were caught for a third time, you would be sentenced to 25 years with no parole.
A great idea in principle, and I agree that it did reduce rime levels (by how much it is difficult to say since crime levels in the whole of the US were dropping). However, it also had the major (side) effect of making criminals more likely to commit more violent crimes.
Speaking to a retired police inspector I know, he was livid when the minimum jail sentence of 5 years came in for firearms offences - his opinion was that criminals were more likely to use the weapon rather than just threaten with it.
Are you talking about higher sentencing?
Because I really don't think that will have much of an impact. Most people like this are committing crimes because they don't think they will get caught.
If increased sentencing did have much of an affect, why does America still have a high murder rate?
California introduced a 'three strikes' policy - if you were found guilty of two offences (including shoplifting etc), if you were caught for a third time, you would be sentenced to 25 years with no parole.
A great idea in principle, and I agree that it did reduce rime levels (by how much it is difficult to say since crime levels in the whole of the US were dropping). However, it also had the major (side) effect of making criminals more likely to commit more violent crimes.
Speaking to a retired police inspector I know, he was livid when the minimum jail sentence of 5 years came in for firearms offences - his opinion was that criminals were more likely to use the weapon rather than just threaten with it.
Vic, when you talk about the criminal underworld and the Krays, I truly think you're losing the plot. The question asks 'Where's the respect gone'. and it refers to out-of-control kids and anti-social behaviour.
When people like the Krays were locked up, all the other criminals started getting proper jobs.
Err .. ..no .... they didn't.
When people like the Krays were locked up, all the other criminals started getting proper jobs.
Err .. ..no .... they didn't.
When people like the Krays were locked up, all the other criminals started getting proper jobs.
Err .. ..no .... they didn't. - exactly.
Both were sentenced to life imprisonment, with a non-parole period of 30 years
So harsher sentencing worked how exactly?
The question asks 'Where's the respect gone'. and it refers to out-of-control kids and anti-social behaviour.
And you still haven't made clear what you view is on this - when I quote back what you have stated, I am apparently 'being silly'.
Err .. ..no .... they didn't. - exactly.
Both were sentenced to life imprisonment, with a non-parole period of 30 years
So harsher sentencing worked how exactly?
The question asks 'Where's the respect gone'. and it refers to out-of-control kids and anti-social behaviour.
And you still haven't made clear what you view is on this - when I quote back what you have stated, I am apparently 'being silly'.
I made my view on kids and anti-social behaviour abundantly clear several posts ago. Perhaps you haven't read it properly.
I haven't a clue what you're on about. Are you talking about criminals of 40 years ago who weren't caught? Harsh sentences got the Krays out of the way, so how didn't it work? Or perhaps you would have preferred to educate them?
I haven't a clue what you're on about. Are you talking about criminals of 40 years ago who weren't caught? Harsh sentences got the Krays out of the way, so how didn't it work? Or perhaps you would have preferred to educate them?
Well your view seems to be that 'harsher sentences' equate to lower levels of anti social behaviour.
Apparently you think that the people who attacked the officer will do as they please because they know there are no comebacks
I ask again, do you think these people (if caught) will get charged and sentenced, or do you truly believe that there is 'no comeback' - or were you merely exaggerating to make your point.
Do you think that the people committing these crimes think about the consequences of their actions before committing these crimes?
What sort of increased sentencing are you looking for? Should it be like California (with the increased violent crime rate for second time offenders) or do you have any other ideas?
Apparently you think that the people who attacked the officer will do as they please because they know there are no comebacks
I ask again, do you think these people (if caught) will get charged and sentenced, or do you truly believe that there is 'no comeback' - or were you merely exaggerating to make your point.
Do you think that the people committing these crimes think about the consequences of their actions before committing these crimes?
What sort of increased sentencing are you looking for? Should it be like California (with the increased violent crime rate for second time offenders) or do you have any other ideas?
I do think harsher sentences would lead to lower levels of anti-social behaviour. If you know without doubt you're going to be in trouble for doing it, you don't do it. That's human nature.
I didn�t say the people who attacked the police won�t be punished. You�re putting words into my mouth. Attacking the police is one thing they will be punished for - if the police can catch them, that is. However, if children were taught from a young age to respect other people and the law, and there were tougher consequences for behaving anti-socially, this probably wouldn�t have happened, because firstly the kid wouldn�t have thrown rubbish on the ground, and secondly she wouldn�t have disobeyed the policeman - much less thrown her rubbish at him.
Do you think that the people committing these crimes think about the consequences of their actions before committing these crimes?
I can't see the point of that question, but no, I don�t think they think about the consqences of their actions - because there are rarely any consequences to think about except perhaps a meaningless ASBO, which in itself has become a badge of honour for some kids.
What sort of increased sentencing are you looking for? Should it be like California (with the increased violent crime rate for second time offenders) or do you have any other ideas?
I�ve always behaved myself in California, so I know nothing about the law there. Does this apply to anti-social kids or to adult criminals?
You're continually arguing with anyone who calls for more discipline, and stiffer penalties for anti-social behaviour, and saying that you'd rather educate these kids, so tell me how you propose we do that to cure the problem urgently.
I didn�t say the people who attacked the police won�t be punished. You�re putting words into my mouth. Attacking the police is one thing they will be punished for - if the police can catch them, that is. However, if children were taught from a young age to respect other people and the law, and there were tougher consequences for behaving anti-socially, this probably wouldn�t have happened, because firstly the kid wouldn�t have thrown rubbish on the ground, and secondly she wouldn�t have disobeyed the policeman - much less thrown her rubbish at him.
Do you think that the people committing these crimes think about the consequences of their actions before committing these crimes?
I can't see the point of that question, but no, I don�t think they think about the consqences of their actions - because there are rarely any consequences to think about except perhaps a meaningless ASBO, which in itself has become a badge of honour for some kids.
What sort of increased sentencing are you looking for? Should it be like California (with the increased violent crime rate for second time offenders) or do you have any other ideas?
I�ve always behaved myself in California, so I know nothing about the law there. Does this apply to anti-social kids or to adult criminals?
You're continually arguing with anyone who calls for more discipline, and stiffer penalties for anti-social behaviour, and saying that you'd rather educate these kids, so tell me how you propose we do that to cure the problem urgently.
My ex prison officer friend, (Strangeways), left the service because he was disillusioned with how soft prisons were becoming.
In his day, slopping out was the norm, but the human rights act put a stop to that.
People should be frightened of going to prison, and the prisons should be more sparse.
The old military glasshouses had the right idea.
They could punish somebody in 28 days and leave a frightening memory of what it was to break the rules.
In his day, slopping out was the norm, but the human rights act put a stop to that.
People should be frightened of going to prison, and the prisons should be more sparse.
The old military glasshouses had the right idea.
They could punish somebody in 28 days and leave a frightening memory of what it was to break the rules.
Absolutely Theland1
I also know someone who works in a prison and he says prisoners have so many luxuries that it's not a punishment for them at all. In fact they have a better life in prison than they ever did at home. That has got to be wrong. Prison should be such a hell hole that no one would ever want to go back. And as for human rights, they should lose all their rights the moment they commit the crime.
I also know someone who works in a prison and he says prisoners have so many luxuries that it's not a punishment for them at all. In fact they have a better life in prison than they ever did at home. That has got to be wrong. Prison should be such a hell hole that no one would ever want to go back. And as for human rights, they should lose all their rights the moment they commit the crime.
When I was young in our house we had to been seen and not heard when my parents had company and if we interupted we knew what we got when they went. Now the kids just mouth the parents no respect at all. But must say mine don't but I didn't bring them up so strict as I was .I had the strap over my behind many a time didnt do me any harm. But you can't do that now the kids report you .
I didn�t say the people who attacked the police won�t be punished. You�re putting words into my mouth.
You said: The only thing they might understand by that time is that anti-social behaviour carries penalties. If they knew they were going to be embarrassed in front of their mates, and marched off and banged up in a police cell for a few days, or sent to a boot camp, they might think twice being doing what they do. As it is, they do as they please because they know there are no comebacks. my emphasis.
You certainly imply that these kids will not be punished.
I can't see the point of that question, but no, I don�t think they think about the consqences of their actions
But you think that if there are more serious consequences, they will suddenly start thinking about their actions.....
This is my point. Stiffer jail terms seems to have little effect because these yobs don't think that they will get caught.
If you don't think you will get caught, then it doesn't matter what the consequences are.
If you know without doubt you're going to be in trouble for doing it, you don't do it. That's human nature.
So there are no murders in America?
Does this apply to anti-social kids or to adult criminals? - two of the people arrested regarding this case are in their 30s
saying that you'd rather educate these kids, so tell me how you propose we do that to cure the problem urgently.
There is no quick fix. I don't have a magic wand.
It requires time, money and effort, not just from government, but from individuals like you and me.
Sadly we have become a very introverted society - the Africans have a saying "its takes a whole village to raise a child" - sadly, if people just keep seeing kids as trouble, then things will only get worse.
You said: The only thing they might understand by that time is that anti-social behaviour carries penalties. If they knew they were going to be embarrassed in front of their mates, and marched off and banged up in a police cell for a few days, or sent to a boot camp, they might think twice being doing what they do. As it is, they do as they please because they know there are no comebacks. my emphasis.
You certainly imply that these kids will not be punished.
I can't see the point of that question, but no, I don�t think they think about the consqences of their actions
But you think that if there are more serious consequences, they will suddenly start thinking about their actions.....
This is my point. Stiffer jail terms seems to have little effect because these yobs don't think that they will get caught.
If you don't think you will get caught, then it doesn't matter what the consequences are.
If you know without doubt you're going to be in trouble for doing it, you don't do it. That's human nature.
So there are no murders in America?
Does this apply to anti-social kids or to adult criminals? - two of the people arrested regarding this case are in their 30s
saying that you'd rather educate these kids, so tell me how you propose we do that to cure the problem urgently.
There is no quick fix. I don't have a magic wand.
It requires time, money and effort, not just from government, but from individuals like you and me.
Sadly we have become a very introverted society - the Africans have a saying "its takes a whole village to raise a child" - sadly, if people just keep seeing kids as trouble, then things will only get worse.
I find it interesting that a Police Officer can be attacked so viciously over such a minor matter it demonstrates succinctly the problems the general public face when they (we, me) when confronted by them.
Theland your friend has a very odd name! But I have some sympathy with his thinking, I'm not a propronent of the bread and water brigade but prison should be a far grimmer environment, I don't understand why 'open' prisons have to be so insecure.
Prison works.
It works because they can't reoffend whilst their inside.
It works because eveybody associated with them sees them go away.
It works because the VICTIM sees something resembling redress.
The reason for the overall fall in crime is largely because goods are cheaper also houses and cars are more difficult to break into.
As I said earlier we lock up more juveniles than ever before and youth crime is (apparently) falling, see?
Prison works...
Theland your friend has a very odd name! But I have some sympathy with his thinking, I'm not a propronent of the bread and water brigade but prison should be a far grimmer environment, I don't understand why 'open' prisons have to be so insecure.
Prison works.
It works because they can't reoffend whilst their inside.
It works because eveybody associated with them sees them go away.
It works because the VICTIM sees something resembling redress.
The reason for the overall fall in crime is largely because goods are cheaper also houses and cars are more difficult to break into.
As I said earlier we lock up more juveniles than ever before and youth crime is (apparently) falling, see?
Prison works...
Vic, hang on a minute. This question asks �Do you think we can start to turnaround the feeling of fear over tackling anti-social behaviour and regaining respect for others?� So far you�ve trundled into the 1950s, 60s, and 70s criminal underworld, and the Krays - and now you�re talking about American murderers. And Quinlad, whom I believe would endorse your sentiments (although I could be wrong) asks contributors here not to harp on about the past!
You were putting words into my mouth. I was talking about anti-social behaviour, as you well know, and an attack on the police is not anti-social behaviour - it�s assault - and that�s a serious crime.
The Africans are right. Some years ago our communities did help to raise our children, and they played a major role in raising children, but what happens now if a child is chastised at school? The parents are there spoiling for a fight, and the human rights brigade and people like you are bringing up the rear in full support, so don�t quote the wise Africans to me when it�s your mentality that has destroyed that community and has let our children down so shamefully. You and your kind have blighted this generation - and if we continue to follow your ridiculous ethos, we will allow you to blight even more children�s lives. It makes me angry, because the kids are the people who are suffering in the long term - and they are the ones who are losing out. Children need guidance and they need to have defined boundaries over which they know they do not step - and they need to have both from a young age. As adults, it is our duty to provide both, and we aren�t doing it - and therein lies the problem. It�s as simple as that.
Continued�.
You were putting words into my mouth. I was talking about anti-social behaviour, as you well know, and an attack on the police is not anti-social behaviour - it�s assault - and that�s a serious crime.
The Africans are right. Some years ago our communities did help to raise our children, and they played a major role in raising children, but what happens now if a child is chastised at school? The parents are there spoiling for a fight, and the human rights brigade and people like you are bringing up the rear in full support, so don�t quote the wise Africans to me when it�s your mentality that has destroyed that community and has let our children down so shamefully. You and your kind have blighted this generation - and if we continue to follow your ridiculous ethos, we will allow you to blight even more children�s lives. It makes me angry, because the kids are the people who are suffering in the long term - and they are the ones who are losing out. Children need guidance and they need to have defined boundaries over which they know they do not step - and they need to have both from a young age. As adults, it is our duty to provide both, and we aren�t doing it - and therein lies the problem. It�s as simple as that.
Continued�.
�.Continued
You admit you don�t have a magic wand, and you don�t have an immediate answer to the problem, and yet you�re adamant that your way - which is clearly no way at all at the moment - is right. Well, it isn�t, and we�ve proven it isn�t, because we've tried it and it isn�t working - and it never will.
We�re going round in circles with this argument, and it�s continuing from thread to thread. I�ve said my piece, and unless anyone comes up with something a little more positive, I don�t believe I can add to it.
Oh, except perhaps to tell Quinlad that, although he might not believe it now, we can learn from history - and once he wises up and has a little history behind him to call upon, he�ll understand that. He need be in no doubt of that, because time really will tell.
You admit you don�t have a magic wand, and you don�t have an immediate answer to the problem, and yet you�re adamant that your way - which is clearly no way at all at the moment - is right. Well, it isn�t, and we�ve proven it isn�t, because we've tried it and it isn�t working - and it never will.
We�re going round in circles with this argument, and it�s continuing from thread to thread. I�ve said my piece, and unless anyone comes up with something a little more positive, I don�t believe I can add to it.
Oh, except perhaps to tell Quinlad that, although he might not believe it now, we can learn from history - and once he wises up and has a little history behind him to call upon, he�ll understand that. He need be in no doubt of that, because time really will tell.
I was talking about anti-social behaviour, as you well know, and an attack on the police is not anti-social behaviour - it�s assault - and that�s a serious crime.
Sorry, the question was about anti social behaviour with a link to the offence of a police officer (which you said you had seen on tv) - it is not particularly clear which you are talking about.
but what happens now if a child is chastised at school? The parents are there spoiling for a fight, and the human rights brigade and people like you are bringing up the rear in full support,
I have been on Answerbank for just over 4 years and have contributed over 4500 questions / answers.
Please show me a single occasion where I have supported a parent in their spoiling for a 'fight at school'.
Just one example is fine. If not, then an apology would be appreciated.
Well, it isn�t, and we�ve proven it isn�t, because we've tried it and it isn�t working - and it never will.
You seem to keep conveniently forgetting that crime is on a down ward trend. Of course, I am sure you will rubbish those figures, because your prejudices make you think they are wrong.
You also seem to keep not answering the point that long / harsh sentences do not seem to work (the most obvious citation is murder in America).
Yes, this argument is circular, mainly because you don't seem to want to admit (despite proof to the contrary):
1) Crime levels are down
and
2) Harsh punishments do not necessarily work to cut down on crime (see America)
Sorry, the question was about anti social behaviour with a link to the offence of a police officer (which you said you had seen on tv) - it is not particularly clear which you are talking about.
but what happens now if a child is chastised at school? The parents are there spoiling for a fight, and the human rights brigade and people like you are bringing up the rear in full support,
I have been on Answerbank for just over 4 years and have contributed over 4500 questions / answers.
Please show me a single occasion where I have supported a parent in their spoiling for a 'fight at school'.
Just one example is fine. If not, then an apology would be appreciated.
Well, it isn�t, and we�ve proven it isn�t, because we've tried it and it isn�t working - and it never will.
You seem to keep conveniently forgetting that crime is on a down ward trend. Of course, I am sure you will rubbish those figures, because your prejudices make you think they are wrong.
You also seem to keep not answering the point that long / harsh sentences do not seem to work (the most obvious citation is murder in America).
Yes, this argument is circular, mainly because you don't seem to want to admit (despite proof to the contrary):
1) Crime levels are down
and
2) Harsh punishments do not necessarily work to cut down on crime (see America)
When were these days or respect, some halcyon days in the distant past when there was a golden age of universal respect by the young for the establishment.
It certainly wasn't in times of antiquity as we have the words of Socrates bemoaning how the youth of his today show no respect. It certainly wasn't during the Roman empire when Tacitus expresses concern about the loss of civilized behaviour.
In modern day, well I can remember the 70's and it didn't exist then. Conservatives in an attempt to control troublesome young men in the 80's the 'short sharp shock' was employed via the Detention Centre's was a complete failure and very quickly abandoned.
There has always be aggressive and anti social behaviour - probably always will be, although it is lessening. Harsh and punitive measures to try and control this behaviour rarely have a success rate. Well apart from the middle ages - the burning of witches pretty much seems to have stamped out that sort of behaviour!!!
It certainly wasn't in times of antiquity as we have the words of Socrates bemoaning how the youth of his today show no respect. It certainly wasn't during the Roman empire when Tacitus expresses concern about the loss of civilized behaviour.
In modern day, well I can remember the 70's and it didn't exist then. Conservatives in an attempt to control troublesome young men in the 80's the 'short sharp shock' was employed via the Detention Centre's was a complete failure and very quickly abandoned.
There has always be aggressive and anti social behaviour - probably always will be, although it is lessening. Harsh and punitive measures to try and control this behaviour rarely have a success rate. Well apart from the middle ages - the burning of witches pretty much seems to have stamped out that sort of behaviour!!!
No apologies Vic. The liberal mentality is responsible.
If you believe crime statistics aren't manipulated, then you are naive. For one thing, they don't include the under 16s ...............
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/pol itics/2273495/Knife-crime-'much-worse'-in-last -five-years,-80-per-cent-of-police-officers-sa y.html
and they're misleading in other ways too .............
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime /article3466816.ece
http://www.civitas.org.uk/data/crimeFigures200 4-05.php
You also seem to keep not answering the point that long / harsh sentences do not seem to work (the most obvious citation is murder in America).
I have answered the point several times. They succeed in removing criminals from the streets - and that works for society. Speaking of America, have you been to New York since it took up zero tolerance?
If you believe crime statistics aren't manipulated, then you are naive. For one thing, they don't include the under 16s ...............
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/pol itics/2273495/Knife-crime-'much-worse'-in-last -five-years,-80-per-cent-of-police-officers-sa y.html
and they're misleading in other ways too .............
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime /article3466816.ece
http://www.civitas.org.uk/data/crimeFigures200 4-05.php
You also seem to keep not answering the point that long / harsh sentences do not seem to work (the most obvious citation is murder in America).
I have answered the point several times. They succeed in removing criminals from the streets - and that works for society. Speaking of America, have you been to New York since it took up zero tolerance?
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