ChatterBank1 min ago
ban gay sex, say Brits
A quarter of Brits want homosexual sex made illegal. The figure has actually been rising.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/oc t/26/relationships
Weird. (imho)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/oc t/26/relationships
Weird. (imho)
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I still don't agree with gay adoptions of children, the notion that gay relationships are in some way more stable than straight ones is risible. Gays get divorced/break up too you know?
The only gay adoption I've read about is with a couple of millionaires and if I remember correctly his parental attitude was "if she wants that handbag for �100 then she can have it" this is not indicative of gay people nor is it an indictment of all gay people, because they are just people and he is just 1 example, the reality is, is that this idea of gay adoptions is a huge social experiment, and I personally am against experimenting on children.
To my mind someone who is accepting of their own homosexuality should realise and be comfortable with the fact that by the very nature of living a homosexual lifestyle means that they are not going to be parents, aunties, uncles, cousins etc. yes but parents no.
The only gay adoption I've read about is with a couple of millionaires and if I remember correctly his parental attitude was "if she wants that handbag for �100 then she can have it" this is not indicative of gay people nor is it an indictment of all gay people, because they are just people and he is just 1 example, the reality is, is that this idea of gay adoptions is a huge social experiment, and I personally am against experimenting on children.
To my mind someone who is accepting of their own homosexuality should realise and be comfortable with the fact that by the very nature of living a homosexual lifestyle means that they are not going to be parents, aunties, uncles, cousins etc. yes but parents no.
Everton - I don't think that anyone has claimed that gay relationships are 'more' stable...............I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone should wish to condemn these children to living in some sort of Local Authority home purely 'because' when there are warm, loving welcoming environments awaiting elsewhere.
Again, I would ask, if you perceive gay adoption as a social experiment, what do you ( seeing as flip_flop hasn't answered ) believe will happen to the detriment of these children ?
I reject the end part of your argument which smacks of retribution; in choosing to be queer you have given up all rights to parenthood..........change your mind, however, decide to be straight and voila !!
Again, I would ask, if you perceive gay adoption as a social experiment, what do you ( seeing as flip_flop hasn't answered ) believe will happen to the detriment of these children ?
I reject the end part of your argument which smacks of retribution; in choosing to be queer you have given up all rights to parenthood..........change your mind, however, decide to be straight and voila !!
Well now, I DO have experience of bringing up a child in such an environment..............my son.
Thankfully I didn't have to compromise or trade my sexuality for parenthood, much to your chagrin I should imagine Everton123.
As an experiment, I should say, with all obvious humility, the results are a triumph. The data is available to anyone who meets him: A well-presented, articulate, polite useful member of society.
And as a loving parent, I can state that should anything have happened to me, when my son was younger, which resulted in him having to go into Local Authority care, I would have loved him to have been adopted by a loving gay couple rather than to have languished in such a place.
Thankfully I didn't have to compromise or trade my sexuality for parenthood, much to your chagrin I should imagine Everton123.
As an experiment, I should say, with all obvious humility, the results are a triumph. The data is available to anyone who meets him: A well-presented, articulate, polite useful member of society.
And as a loving parent, I can state that should anything have happened to me, when my son was younger, which resulted in him having to go into Local Authority care, I would have loved him to have been adopted by a loving gay couple rather than to have languished in such a place.
To answer the last part first, I don't view it as retribution I simply view it as action, reaction and consequence as an adult you have to take responsibility for the choices you make whether you are driven by compulsion or desire.
The second part of the question cannot at the moment be answered because it is a new thing in 20 years time we'll know more about the effects or otherwise.
Perhaps what Flip is trying to express is that all the most successful societies have marriage (I support gay marriage but not civil partnerships) at their core and that children are more inclined to succeed in a home where they are reared by their biological parents.
Marriage is the best status for any serious long term relationship, one glance at the state of this nation tells you that the permissive society (guilty as) has failed everyone young, old and inbetween.
I rarely hear of an adult suffering from a happy childhood, straight or gay the world would be a better place if adults behaved more like grown ups, especially were children are involved.
The second part of the question cannot at the moment be answered because it is a new thing in 20 years time we'll know more about the effects or otherwise.
Perhaps what Flip is trying to express is that all the most successful societies have marriage (I support gay marriage but not civil partnerships) at their core and that children are more inclined to succeed in a home where they are reared by their biological parents.
Marriage is the best status for any serious long term relationship, one glance at the state of this nation tells you that the permissive society (guilty as) has failed everyone young, old and inbetween.
I rarely hear of an adult suffering from a happy childhood, straight or gay the world would be a better place if adults behaved more like grown ups, especially were children are involved.
I appreciate that you probably weren't answering my points in your last answer, Everton123..........
I don't think that anyone would doubt that wherever possible children should be with their (a) biological parent(s)............but what about cases where that just isn't possible ? Where adoption 'out of the family' is the sole option..........
I don't think that anyone would doubt that wherever possible children should be with their (a) biological parent(s)............but what about cases where that just isn't possible ? Where adoption 'out of the family' is the sole option..........
No chagrin at all Jack, you're misreading my point, the fact I disagree with the practice of gay adoption does not mean I'm about to burn effigies on door steps.
I'm very happy that your son is a well adjusted indiviual (all credit to you) but he is your son, at no point have I expressed that gay people should'nt have biological children of their own. For the simple reason one can't legislate against consentual adult sex (unless one's paying which is a completely different question) what I will say plainly is that people should have the right to say whether they are accepting of the fact that their child may be raised in that environment and be allowed to opt out, the same for NGOs.
In America the biological parents apparently meet the adoptees.
I'm very happy that your son is a well adjusted indiviual (all credit to you) but he is your son, at no point have I expressed that gay people should'nt have biological children of their own. For the simple reason one can't legislate against consentual adult sex (unless one's paying which is a completely different question) what I will say plainly is that people should have the right to say whether they are accepting of the fact that their child may be raised in that environment and be allowed to opt out, the same for NGOs.
In America the biological parents apparently meet the adoptees.
123.
1) Are you saying that we should assume that same sex parents are harmful (even though there's no evidence to suggest this) on the off chance that some might crop up in 20 years?
2) Given that everyone is agreeing that it's best for a child to be brought up by its biological parents, do you believe that - in lieu of that - we should deny children an apparently stable home in favour of a local authority upbringing?
3) Taking the US model, do you think the best people to judge the suitability of adoptive parents are biological parents who want rid of their own children?
1) Are you saying that we should assume that same sex parents are harmful (even though there's no evidence to suggest this) on the off chance that some might crop up in 20 years?
2) Given that everyone is agreeing that it's best for a child to be brought up by its biological parents, do you believe that - in lieu of that - we should deny children an apparently stable home in favour of a local authority upbringing?
3) Taking the US model, do you think the best people to judge the suitability of adoptive parents are biological parents who want rid of their own children?
Quimlad.
1 I've said quite clearly "I don't know", I've also said the best environment to raise a child IMHO is with a man and a woman, it certainly has'nt done the majority of gays any harm. Furthermore as adults I do not feel homosexuals or homosexuality is harmful to them.
2 If the child is old enough they should be asked their opinion, local authority care should provide for the childs needs so I feel it's a little unfair to generalise or hint about the poor care on offer in local authorities. The short answer though is yes.
3 A rather poor use of words "rid" the decision to give a child up is (I'm sure) one that is done with great reluctance, given that everybody raises their children to the standards they see fit to disregard the views of a parent who's decided that their child's future is best served with another family, is somewhat callous.
No matter what it will always be their child and no amount of paper work will make it state property to disposed of as they see fit.
To give a child up is IMHO the greatest testament to wanting the best for that child, the parent should have a say.
1 I've said quite clearly "I don't know", I've also said the best environment to raise a child IMHO is with a man and a woman, it certainly has'nt done the majority of gays any harm. Furthermore as adults I do not feel homosexuals or homosexuality is harmful to them.
2 If the child is old enough they should be asked their opinion, local authority care should provide for the childs needs so I feel it's a little unfair to generalise or hint about the poor care on offer in local authorities. The short answer though is yes.
3 A rather poor use of words "rid" the decision to give a child up is (I'm sure) one that is done with great reluctance, given that everybody raises their children to the standards they see fit to disregard the views of a parent who's decided that their child's future is best served with another family, is somewhat callous.
No matter what it will always be their child and no amount of paper work will make it state property to disposed of as they see fit.
To give a child up is IMHO the greatest testament to wanting the best for that child, the parent should have a say.
You seem to be hung up on the 'traditional family modular unit'.................in the absence of this (for whatever reasons) and where it is unacheivable, and please don't wriggle around on this, I really can't believe that you would rather see a child in Local Authority care where they don't and can't receive the nurturing one to one love and attention on offer with placement in a gay family................that is a preposterous and totally unfeeling view.
Unfeeling I am not.
The question is what do you feel is best for a child?
I feel the "traditional" set up is best, I'm not "hung up" on it as you suggest, there is abundant evidence all around you on the streets, in the papers, on the TV and even on this site that the "modern" way is a failure.
So if you like I have rejected some aspects of "modern culture" as is my right.
Adoption, fostering, council care are far from ideal for any child (I'd much prefer for them to be at home) but the children you're talking about are much older (who should be asked if they are willing to live in that environment) younger children are rarely (if ever now) placed in large facilities and are placed with family units.
I see little wrong in having an ideal family as a model to work towards as one becomes an adult and begins to think formulatively then one can make their own decisions as to what that ideal should be.
Which is were we all are now.
The question is what do you feel is best for a child?
I feel the "traditional" set up is best, I'm not "hung up" on it as you suggest, there is abundant evidence all around you on the streets, in the papers, on the TV and even on this site that the "modern" way is a failure.
So if you like I have rejected some aspects of "modern culture" as is my right.
Adoption, fostering, council care are far from ideal for any child (I'd much prefer for them to be at home) but the children you're talking about are much older (who should be asked if they are willing to live in that environment) younger children are rarely (if ever now) placed in large facilities and are placed with family units.
I see little wrong in having an ideal family as a model to work towards as one becomes an adult and begins to think formulatively then one can make their own decisions as to what that ideal should be.
Which is were we all are now.
The fact that you wish them 'to be at home', 'in a traditional family unit', etc. etc. is obvious; I'm mooting the point about instances when this is not possible.
And these young chidren you mention, placed with family units...............I presume I don't have to stretch my imagination too far to imagine what these 'family units' are............?
Still no-one has adequately explained why gay couples shouldn't damn well be allowed to adopt............
And these young chidren you mention, placed with family units...............I presume I don't have to stretch my imagination too far to imagine what these 'family units' are............?
Still no-one has adequately explained why gay couples shouldn't damn well be allowed to adopt............
Men make up roughly half the world's population, a child raised by both a man and a woman can glean a better understanding of the way the world works because it has balance, to my mind a child should seek out it's Mother for support and it's Father for guidance.
Monkey I've tried my best to make you understand my viewpoint (you don't have to agree with it) I personally feel that the people who are offering a child up for adoption/fostering do have aright to say what kind of environment they want that child raised in.
Nobody has a right to a child and everybody has even less right to somebody elses child, a child is a blessing whether you achieve that blessing naturally via IVF or adoption is irrelevant.
Monkey I've tried my best to make you understand my viewpoint (you don't have to agree with it) I personally feel that the people who are offering a child up for adoption/fostering do have aright to say what kind of environment they want that child raised in.
Nobody has a right to a child and everybody has even less right to somebody elses child, a child is a blessing whether you achieve that blessing naturally via IVF or adoption is irrelevant.
I've answered Quimlad as best I can, I feel that it is best for a child to be raised by a man and a woman because it offers balance.
The state when it is looking for homes to adopt children should seek to provide the best model, so just to clarify it further just for you as above^^^^^^^^
I have little quarrel with the idea that the birth parents being given the chance to opt out (or in) to the idea that their child may be offered to a gay couple.
As I've said quite plainly, I disagree with the practice but if someone else is happy for their child to live with gay parents then that's their choice.
The state when it is looking for homes to adopt children should seek to provide the best model, so just to clarify it further just for you as above^^^^^^^^
I have little quarrel with the idea that the birth parents being given the chance to opt out (or in) to the idea that their child may be offered to a gay couple.
As I've said quite plainly, I disagree with the practice but if someone else is happy for their child to live with gay parents then that's their choice.
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