Reasonable use of force.

[flanker]

So what do you guys consider to be reasonable use of force to protect your loved ones and/or property?

 

Personally, if somebody steps over my threshold uninvited, they are fair game: I have no idea whether they are armed or not, and so to protect my family I would use all the force available to me and if that means maiming or even death, then so be it.

 

A bit extreme? possibly, but who can honestly say they would not do the same to protect their kids (those that have kids).

[georgit79]

see, I completely agree with you there, every point you make is right in my book. I was just getting a bit sick of all the macho sniping going on in this thread before, although I think even bernardo would admit he/she's (still can't tell) not macho!

 

Glad you're back.

[el duerino]

its quite fashionable these days to have an ultra tough stance on crime et al. blame it all on the liberals etc. as if it will solve everything being able to batter a burglar into a pulp.

 

think now - if you are going to rob a house, and if you get caught you will be killed by the houseowner, are you going to snoop around or are you going to deal with them first? some people would not think twice in desperation. Increase the stakes and you open yourself to more risk, not less. The law is there for a reason. Will you feel so brave being charged with manslaughter and risking losing 15 years in prison. Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 no doubt, but a little grey matter never hurt anyone.

[WaldoMcFroog]

I have a suspicion that Fenner and Cruthinboy are some new online version of Julie Burchill, paid by a mischeivious demon to pose extreme and indefensible positions on the answerbank so they can laugh at the rest of us getting a flap.

 

The alternative is simply too ridiculous to contemplate.

[Wraith]

Thing is, I work with a load of left liberal PCers so I'm well used to the usual bland, run-of-the-mill opinions I see on here ... I just can't believe that people would actually go to the trouble of typing such standard tosh!

 

The reason I typed such tosh is that I believe it. I don't want to see some youngster dragged along by their peers lying in a pool of blood because they made one mistake. I also don't want to be locked away for manslaughter, visited once a week by my kids. Nor would I like to see one of my children locked away for doing what they thought was right.

[jimmer]

crutin boy, if you are an anarchist then it is not your house. Because all property is theft the burgler would not be a burgler but an equal entering a communal living space. There wouldn't be any laws to protect either of you. ergo you would not have the moral right to kill an intruder under anarchy. You're talking about libertairianism which is also called the law of the jungle. basically this means he has the right to rob you, you have the right to kill him. it really doesn't have much to do with reality.

 

jim

[Oneeyedvic]

On a serious and non machismo point - one thing that really does worry me:

I am a very placid personand very rarely lose my temper - I think I have lost it possibly twice in 30 years. However, when I have lost my temper, I do go into a blind rage - red mist and all. I do worry that if I saw someone leaning over my wife and I lost my temper, I would actually kill that person without actually being concious of what I am doing (if that makes sense). Okay, I may be able to argue self defense but if I wrestled a knife away from them and just kept stabbing until they were dead, it may be classed as murder. Or maybe I should have shouted for them to stop etc.

At the end of the day, no one really knows how they will react until the circumstances present themselves, and everyone will have a different interpretation.

But lets face it 12 true men - possibly better than just a judge, but miscariages of justice are not exactly unheard of.

 

Anyway, my point is that there will always be people who go too far in defending themselves - my worry is that I may be one of those people in the 'right' circumstances

[cruthinboy]

jimmer - anarchism covers a multitude of sins (horrible expression, don't know why used it!) - from ethnic Baknuninism through Proudhon who I believe you quoted through to Stirner and Juengers indivialism  - even to US liberatrian anarcho-capitalism (Ayn Rand).

Waldo - how dare you compare me with that pro-Zionist, pro-abortion Burchill!!! Actually, I do sympathise with her persona as extremely disgruntled white, working class - but completely disagree with some /most of her opinions.

[cruthinboy]

oneeyed vic - wouldn't worry about going to far (apart from prison!) - bet the hypothetical burglar isn't!

Honestly, do people really care if some serial burglar gets it in the neck??? Quite honestly I don't!

[robbieh]

I�d rather live out the rest of my days without a few possesions than I would knowing I had actually killed somebody. More defence obviously if loved ones are at risk, but if we started shooting the criminals, then the criminals will just shoot us first and not give ourselves any chance to defend ourselves.

[cruthinboy]

What's wrong with being macho anyway??? Better than being effeminate, to me anyway - each to their own.

[cruthinboy]

Robbieh, the fact that it would prey on your mind that you killed someone indicates you're a decent human being - many people don't seem to be - some even become burglars/muggers etc.

[cruthinboy]

el duerino, where do you live where it's fashionable to be tough on crime? Mid-Hampshire or somewhere???

How much are houses round there? (-:

[bernardo]

GAB georgit79  I'm still trying to work out whether cruthinboy is real or just tongue-in-cheek wind-up.  (Sadly I think he's real)

Perhaps we should go round to cruthinboy's house and smash his head in with some baseball bats.  Then he might learn to be reasonable and open-minded.  (joke)

[Donkey]

You lot seem to be giving the burglar quite a lot of trust here that he/she doesn't have a weapon in his pocket and he/she wont use it, This person has just broke into your house, this person is scum and has no regard for the law, and you lot are trusting him/her that he/she will just walk out when he/she sees/hears you. You only need to make the decision wrong once and you could be dead... If someone is in my house they have most likely used a tool to get in , maybe a screwdriver... I am not having no conversation with this person I am swinging that bat towards His/her head.

[cruthinboy]

Try it bernardo, what you'd get would be no joke  ... believe me. You revolting man - let's see if your threat gets banned - if it does (which it won't) i didn't report it - bring it on, I say!

[I don't view bernardo's post as seriously threatening to you, crutinboy. If you do, please let me know. In the meantime, perhaps you could all cut back on the personal attacks and concentrate on the debate? - AB Editor]

[flanker]

Wow, this has been really interesting, keep it coming - ultimately, and probably obviously from my question, I very definitely agree with cruthinboy and Donkey.

 

Come into my house uninvited, and you take your chances - this is not, as has been absurdly posted, macho posturing: I don't go looking for fights, and in fact I'm a very placid person (Rugby pitch aside where aggression is good), but, and agreeing with Donkey again, I would have no hesitation whatsoever in swinging a baseball bat with all the strength I could muster, squarley at an intruders head.  

[bernardo]

It wasn't a threat, it was a joke - as indicated by the word "joke" :-)

 

As for your comment "you revolting man", that again shows how poor your arguments are if you have to resort to insulting people.  :-) GSTQ

[cruthinboy]

[This crude threat has been removed. Final warning - no more such posts will be tolerrated on this site. - AB Editor]

[jimmer]

When people start talking about violence it all gets out of hand Crutin Boy. Insults are getting tossed around but if you were all together fists would be flying. I admire you for your stance against all-comers but i cant believe you seriously hold these views, you seem too thoughtful. In the news today: Kenneth Faulkner shot a burgler who had been terrorising him; the burgler got seven years, Faulkner went free. A case judged well on its merits. Tony martin served 3 years for manslaughter and he lay in wait. he could have got life for murder. what's wrong with that.

 

jim

[cruthinboy]

Hey jimmer, I didn't mention violence first - take your b****** liberal blinkers off okay. If I said "you're a f****** w***** " (which I'm not!) and inserted "joke" in parentheses,  would you have a good laugh? No!

Take the issue of threats of violence up with bernardo!

You can't believe I hold these views? Look at the wonderful variety of the world! God, I'd hate to live in your monotone Republic of Liberal.