"The Turning Tide"

[AB Editor]

Good evening word-wranglers,

I wondered if anyone could offer me their translation/research skills.

I'm looking to translate the above phrase into Anglo-saxon/Old English/Regional English.

Happy to hear more foreign versions too, Nordic or Germanic sounding would be a preference.

I'm looking for one which "sounds right".

Sorry for the odd question, but I know you're all creative souls!

All the best,

Spare Ed

[boxtops]

Blimey, Ed, are you emulating King Canute?!

[B00]

oh there's a joke to be made there Boxy, im almost sure of it ;-)

[boxtops]

Go on, then, B00.....

[flobadob]

http://translate.goog...|the%20turning%20tide Think it would be pronounced Casa An Teed

[AB Editor]

I think the noise needs to be more Northern European, and on the East of England:

Danish: drejning tidevand
Norwegian: snu tidevannet

I could just keep cracking through Google translate I suppose.

Who are you calling a Cnut Boxtops?

Thanks for the help Flobadob!

[swedeheart]

Not really sure what you're asking, Spare. "Turning tide" sounds metaphorical to me, is that what you're after or are you simply looking for a translation to describe the oceanographic phenomenon as such, rather than an idiom?

The Danish and Norwegian ones don't sound right to me, in either capacity... but I can't be sure, I only speak Swedish.

If it's a metaphorical quality that you're after you could just say "När tidvattnet vänder" = When the tide turns/As the tide turns. This is a recognised expression meaning when things change, when forces start working in another direction. This expression has quite an awesome ring to it in Swedish, as 'tid' (cf. tide) also means 'time'. So, as I child, I used to think it meant "when the timewater turns". (And in a way it does, l suppose, if you study the etymology.) Like, Ole Father Time himself will put things right, in the end. Or wrong, ha ha, but I believe the expression is mostly used to describe the feeling that things will get better, in due course: Just you wait and see, when the tide turns, there will be a market for my designs...

I'm not sure what 'the turning tide' implies in English, as an idiom, and so it follows that I'm not sure whether or not I've answered your question...

Shall we do the matter-of-fact oceanographic terminology bit as well? Will have to wait till tomorrow though - gotta go now.

[AB Editor]

Dear Swede,

Thanks, I did think of you when posting this actually. And yes, you've caught my meaning correctly - I want to know words of the same meaning (not a direct translation). Sorry if I've been tricky.

How would a flat-tongued East Anglian like myself pronounce: När tidvattnet vänder?

///Shall we do the matter-of-fact oceanographic terminology bit as well?/// Yes please.

I'd also be interested in terms for things like "undertow"

I'll wait patiently for my education on the matter!

Spare Ed

[imagcq]

not sure i understand what your doing. At vende strommen (danish) Beygja fjoru (icelandic) Pone acierrednes egor (old english/saxon) good luck

[swedeheart]

Oh Spare did you mean "turning the tide"/"to turn the tide"? Cos that isn't quite what you've written... but that is - roughly - what imagcq's translation to Danish means. So which did you mean? If you meant "to turn the tide" that would be "att vända tidvattnet" in Swedish - but that's just a translation and not a recognised idiom to the same extent that "när tidvattnet vänder" is. Still, it would be a perfectly acceptable phrase. I would use that phrase to signify FOR INSTANCE the herculean task of changing the way other people think or changing the way society works or people's opinions or people's politics... something like that. You yourself changing the forces that be. You would need for the context to give clues as to exactly how the phrase should be interpreted. And if you didn't give a context, it would still sound herculean just in general ha ha. Changing the course of ...things.

Now then, pronunciation. Click the loudspeaker symbol. När tidvattnet vänder: http://translate.goog...%20the%20tide%20turns - okay, that sounds almost right! The pronunciation is perfect but the emphasis is a bit too strong on 'när' and the rest is too flat and robotic. The meter should be more in the direction of: (cont.)

[swedeheart]

(cont.)

da DUM-da-da DUM-da - i.e. the same way you would stress a phrase like oh say "I asked you politely".

For some reason Google Translate won't do the other phrase, "Att vända tidvattnet". It stops half way through - but that still gives you "Att vända" ("To turn") - and you've already got 'tidvattnet': http://translate.goog...o%20turn%20the%20tide

Same thing here really: The articulation is perfect but the stress i all wrong. For the entire phrase "Att vända tidvattnet" the meter should be something like:

da DUM-da DUM-da-da

Finally, if you want to use imagcq's Danish phrase, it's 'strømmen' with a Danish ø and it doesn't mean tide but more like a flow, a stream. I don't know whether or not it's an idiom or just a word-for-word translation.

More tomorrow evening - or preferably Sunday, if you're not in an awful hurry...

[swedeheart]

PS Spare have you still got my email address that starts with a d? If you do, you're welcome to email me if you feel you could trust me sufficiently to be a bit more specific in an email as to what you're after... cos otherwise this could get lengthy you know;-)

[flobadob]

Ed I misunderstood, perhaps....
Realisation's drag.

[swedeheart]

Hi Spare, brief update on the Danish word 'strømmen': 'Current' is - probably - the correct corresponding word in English.

Now then, I've had a look at oceanographic terminology and Spare I have to admit I feel submerged;-) It's too vast. I'd be absolutely delighted to offer my help but please consider revealing a little bit more about your purpose or it's a hopeless task. My command of Swedish is excellent and I'm a dab hand at thinking up catchy names for products - books, games, what have you - even if I do say so myself:) If that's what the secrecy is all about;-) But I would have to know a leeettle more.

So please consider revealing a bit more either on the forum or to me personally at my email address starting with a d, if you've still got it. You can trust me, Spare - can't you tell by my avatar;-)

[boxtops]

Ed, ancient kings apart - what are you up to? this sounds fascinating!

[imagcq]

i am also interested like the swede, so a little more info may help us help you.

[imagcq]

Undertow in danish is Overfladestrommen. Some saxon words for you Ebba is tide, in turn( Wrixendlice) turn return happen (Wendan) . Ebba Wrixendlice means tide in turn. surround turn revolve (sewindan) . Sewindan Ebba revolving tide. more later.

[swedeheart]

Me again with a Danish PPS: strømmen is THE current (not just 'current'). I forgot that this goes without saying for me, but hardly for you.

SPARE WHERE ARE YOU?? Oh no you haven't fallen overboard have you? Oh well... I'll never forget what we had... http://i56.tinypic.com/2zogoeb.jpg ♫♪ near... far... wherever you are... I believe that "The Bank" does go on ♪♫

[AB Editor]

Morning All,

Thanks for my education Swede. It is fascinating.

"Why?" You all ask, and quite rightly so I suppose. A few things really:

I'm writing a children's story (or rather, at this point, planning it) and I'm after some good terms for, as you say, the herculean task of turning the tide (whatever it may be). This is why I leapt on "När tidvattnet vänder" - as if it is a "used phrase" it probably has the right weight.

Strømmen is good, I'll take that as well!

Because the story focuses around, in part, fear of the "other" I'm looking into concepts associated with the sea. So anything you think is relevant would be welcome.

The reason I've gone northern European is to add a little distance to these concepts immediately. Also, I like the idea exposed by Pound & Lewis in BLAST http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLAST_(magazine) that Northern Europeans have a similarity - it makes sense than that if you cross a boarder, it should be into your neighbours land.

Any clearer?

No, didn't think so!

Might have another run at explaining later!

Spare Ed

[swedeheart]

"Thanks for my education Swede. It is fascinating." Ha, yes my confusion has fascinated me;-) Spare, I want to help but I'm gonna be a pain in the proverbial here and say that your explanation didn't help (me) all that much. I'm still confused. 'Tide' is easily googled and wikied which leads me to conclude it's not knowledge of the forces of nature as such that you're after - you could gather that information for yourself. I respect your secrecy and I know from my own experience that you have to "protect" your work of art - or, rather, you have to protect your own creative process. It's vulnerable, I know. For me personally it's not so much the fear of having somebody steal my idea as the recognition of how the whole thing could collapse like a soufflé if I started talking about it. I've had that happen to me. Writing is a mysterious experience, innit:) So I would say you are right to be secretive.

But it does also make it more difficult for me to help you (and, again, I want to help you). I'm going to test a hypothesis here and perhaps it would be possible for you to confirm or deny. My hypothesis, then, is that you're hardly going to use idioms IN Swedish and IN Danish, et cetera. You would translate them. And: You need them not so much as idioms to reproduce as such but more as an axis to revolve your story around in a metaphorical style. For instance, if the expression is "You cannot turn the tide singlehandedly" (I made that one up) your story might be about a boy or a girl who attempts to prove that statement wrong. You need the idioms for inspiration and for metaphor rather than for reproduction. Am I closing in? (CONTINUED BELOW)

[swedeheart]

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE) Before I forget, do not trust what I have said about Danish. Please don't. It looks like you could say, in Danish: "At dreje strømmen" and that MIGHTmean something like turning the current (water), but I would never ever ever trust Google Translate - and it certainly doesn't know about idioms. It doesn't seem to be an idiom in Danish as far as I have found.

As for 'undertow', there are many synonyms for it in Swedish and I'll give you those if you want them but according to Wiki it's a misconception that an undertow is harmful (and you want danger, don't you). It's when it forms into a rip current (it's on Wiki) it's dangerous. Swedish word for rip current is 'ripström'. (I've never heard that word, I might add...)

Your instincts are good in using a foreign location to add distance and thereby, paradoxically, making the story more real. Based on what you said about "fear of the other", my second hypothesis is that you wouldn't mind a sea zombie or two breaking the surface...! Am I right in thinking you could have let yourself be inspired by Celtic marine folklore, had it not already been quite exploited. If so, you should look into the works of Olaus Magnus here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaus_Magnus I think it could be a gold mine for you.

There is some Olaus Magnus on Amazon; if you need more info you could turn to the National Library of Sweden http://www.kb.se/hjalp/english/

Please let me know if I'm on the right track. If I am, I'll keep on thinking.