Listener 4052 - Question by Aedites

[Philoctetes]

This could get tough. Change ringing and lots of cold solving. Nice and meaty at first glance

[emcee]

I think you could be right Philoctetes. First pass through the clues to be cold solved isn't too encouraging. Could keep us all happy (or otherwise) for quite a while!

[AHearer]

Quite nice tight clues, with enough fairly easy ones to get one started. The top left-hand corner slowed me down for a while, and I found the wording of the 1dn/7dn/12dn "answer" a bit peculiar -- but then, perhaps I've not got it right. The pattern of changes is obvious enough once the letter substitutions have been made.

[turnerjmw]

Not straightforward, this, particularly for those whose cold solving is shaky. But it all comes out in the end. I thought the wording of the answer was fine, AHearer. And, as you say, once the grid is filled the rest is less daunting to those who know nothing about tintinnabulation than it might appear.

[Mysterons]

Yes, with only half of the clues solved it is possible to complete the two blocks of permutations, which then provides a great deal of extra information to assist with solving remaining clues - not as tricky as it first appeared. This one rings bells in more ways than one - last appeared as the Listener's theme in the first numerical of 2005 (3814 - Call Changes - also by Aedites)

[cluelessJoe]

... or even in last year's celebration Listener 4000 (was that Dimitry's piece?)
I got to 'the end' of this by cold solving every clue except two .. partly as I could not be bothered with mechanically playing the letter permutations, more so for the cold solve challenge on a batch of fair and mostly generous clues. The last two were beyond me. I have now rung the changes, which have kindly filled in the blanks on one clue, and left me just one unchecked code letter short in the last. Guess the perms should get me through that when I can be bothered - the answer wording came out OK, so it's more of the same really.
Is there any significance to the shading of the lightest bell ?
Not a great favourite of mine - I perversely enjoyed the cold solve for a change, but the puzzle as a whole fell a bit flat.

[kwyjibo]

I wondered about the highlighting of the lightest too, I assume it's to show that you've identified the changes. I wasn't sure of the correct answer to the question, but have now resolved any ambiguity. I quite enjoyed this, not as difficult as the preamble made it sound.

[robinruth]

I saw a double visual significance in the shading of the lightest bell (even if somewhat rudimentary). Mysterons' method was far too clever for me - I had to resort to cold-solving almost all the clues then working out the answer wording. It took an entire day! Diiiiffficult!

[Eril]

Agreed - a real challenge. The changes mean however that not all clues need to be solved to fill the grid. I have one cell unfilled (42ac) - is that the same one for you ,cluelessJoe? I have a feeling that the same word was used in a recent crossword, though not sure if it was a Listener...but cannot remember it for the life of me.

[Mysterons]

Don't recall the puzzle either Eril, but you can confirm the unchecked second letter using a search facility such as this: http://cfaj.freeshell.org/wordfinder/

Check the 'words matching' box and enter the possible letters for each cell within square brackets, using a full stop in position 2, eg [abcd].[efg][hij][klm][nopq]

The nature of these bell-ringing changes is such that any given note winds its way down the sequence in a sinuous string. In this particular example, G 's pattern is repeated exactly in the second block, creating an attractive symmetry in the grid - this is presumably why it was chosen to be highlighted. Does this sequence have a special name I wonder ?

[robinruth]

What a great word finding tool Mysterons! - Now I am beginning to see why you complete these dastardly puzzes when we haven't even solved ten clues :) OK - I realize it is simply superior brain power. Re the symmetry - for me, it connected with the title - perhaps I am having hallucinations after that struggle.

[Eril]

Actually I was on the wrong track - have it now. But have never seen that tool you mention. I have always used the Chambers word wizard: http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/puzzles/word_wizards/wwizards.py/main
(this does anagrams too, and has all the words in Chambers, plus quite a few proper names).
However the wordfinder you have looks even more powerful, will try it on the hold-outs from this Listener. Thanks!

[Mysterons]

Chambers Word Wizard has a superior lexicon, as is my forst choice for tricky anagrams. The Word-Finder is a useful adjunct and its extra functions are useful for clues with gimmicks, as in this case. Check out the anagram plus/minus features when you have the chance.

[shelouse]

I think I have solved this, tho I don't understand the wordplay for 2d. I've got the answer but it seems to me the question is in doubt, in that I can think of several words which would fit. Have I missed some other clue to this in the grid? I have tried Chambers for all the words that would fit but none of them has the exact definition of the answer.

[emcee]

shelouse, jeel=extreme cold. Hope this helps.

Not as bad a puzzle as I anticipated but still difficult. I thought the two blocks of changes would have been harder to identify than they actually were. My concern is with the word we must enter at the bottom of the grid -- I think there could be more than one valid answer; mine has L as its third letter with no repeated letters. It's gone off now so not much I can do about it if I'm off course!

[shelouse]

emcee, I think you are sadly wrong. I believe I've now answered my own last question, courtesy of the ODQ .......

[x_word_fan]

The website given by Mysterons proved invaluable though it didn't help with 16a which was my last clue. I fail to see the wordplay for 33a - the definition and the middle 2 letters are fine but the outside 2 are a mystery. On to the changes.

[uncletony]

I used the quote too, but unless I'm missing some extra indication, I don't see how this is strong enough justification for marking definition based alternatives as wrong. Perhaps the marking will be generous, but from my experience, generous marking only seems to happen when you don't need it!

[Scorpius]

If the answer to the question is to be found in a quotation, I regard that as a most unfair piece of trickery. Nothing in the preamble suggests a quotation is involved. There is an obvious answer that is thematically appropriate, and this is not the same as the word to which shelouse may be referring.

[emcee]

Scorpius, I'm of the same view. The word I have is definitely thematic and is defined in Chambers involving the 3 columns of words in "my answer". So, who is wrong??? Is this ODQ quotation thematic?

[kwyjibo]

I had 3 possible alternatives, my favoured being a 9 letter word, until I found the correct answer in ODQ - which I only looked for as an afterthought because I wasn't entirely happy with the original answer.