Listener 4081 Double Cross by Radix

[serpentinew]

Listener 4081 Double Cross by Radix - Two for the price of one this week. Certainly lives up to its title!

[AHearer]

Yes, and as luck would have it the entry about which I still have qualms is in the grid that I need to keep! Apart from that, and one that I thought very obscure, fair and satisfying.

[Zabadak]

Funnily enough, I've got a dodgy answer too, but for the same reason, I don't care!
I thought this was a bit of a slog, but a nice, if rather predictable PDM and some fiendish absent or redundant letter play. Tomorrow, when I've recovered a bit, I'll check I've got the right number of outs and ins, which might just help with that dodgy entry.

[starwalker]

Lovely puzzle. I also had a dilemma over one answer, which was unfortunately required for the final submission. Finally resolved and another word added to the "watch out for next time" list.

[dr b]

I slogged away for a half hour or so before it dawned on me that this would be a lot easier if I printed out two grids. Duh. Things certainly proceeded more quickly from that point.

The second half of 8D gets my vote as the most obscure bit of information I've ever had to track down. Is that something that would be common knowledge in the UK, or was Wikipedia needed on your side of the pond as well?

As always, an amazing construction. I wonder how long it takes to create one of these?

[Zabadak]

I've not long finished reading Andrew Roberts' magnificent history of WW2 "the Storm of War" so 8d was not too far away from the fringes of memory - the name is pretty unforgettable once you know it, and the story is just amazing. But as it happens, Chambers has a pretty useful entry too.
Those of us who like to tackle this on a Friday night have the easy option (and in my case, nearly always the necessity!) of printing more than one copy. You'd have to be phenomenally lucky to do this right with only one. I actually used four, as for quite some time I couldn't bridge the gap between the top and bottom halves of either set.

[midazolam]

Been waiting for a Radix puzzle for awhile as they are always a challenge. 2 crosswords in one with tough cluing and the rogue letters not being obvious made it even harder. I just wonder if I am missing anything from what the letters spell out, as it was obvious what to do before they were elucidated. Phew no playfair to solve

Thanks Radix

[Ruthrobin]

I am only two-thirds of the way through the slog and finding it very hard going. However, that 'obscure' bit of 8d was known here and gave one relatively easy piece of word play. I wish all the rest were so!

[Apache4D]

Oh dear :-( last year because of spending far too long with a round of golf, and a fantastic pollock painting it was Lavatch's Beat it that was my first incomplete grid of the year....having only looked at this today because of unforeseen Saturday work commitments I can safely say that Radix will have me beat!!!!! There is no way I'll do this within the time, congrats and admiration to all that have...at first glance all I can get is a german entity and an across the counter product.

[Ruthrobin]

Stick with it, Apache4d! It gets easier as you go along. Make yourself a couple of grids, as people above suggested!

[Warden]

I've finally solved everything and got all the messages and instructions, but am still in two minds which grid to send. I think I could make a case for either!

[dr b]

Warden - the title of the puzzle does give one pause.... is the right grid the obvious one, or.....???

[Ruthrobin]

I think it would be like suicide to disobey the instruction that you have highlighted dr b, though I can see the humour in the double cross of the alternative!

[dr b]

RR: I don't know. The title PLUS the message from the rogue letters - how else to interpret that message? As midazolam points out above, what's the point of the message if you're just supposed to do what the shading tells you to do?

[Ruthrobin]

I'm probably a simple soul, but I am happy to accept that the title is a purely literal description of what I now see in front of me. Otherwise, I get into one of those vicious circles that could go on forever with each conclusion negating the previous one.

[bobbycollins]

Wow

That took over eight hours - longer than I would normally allow, but the end was in sight about halway through. Absolutely no doubt about which grid to be submitted - except that I no longer do so.

A tour de force from Radix, for which many thanks.

[Mysterons]

Yes, no doubt about the correct grid, and being able to complete all diagonals with only a third of the clues solved was a huge help with the rest, so not as tricky as it first appeared - thanks Radix !

[jacinth]

I think I'm with dr b on this one, possibly because I too have to keep a grid with one dodgy answer! Quite tough to start with but it accelerated nicely as the messages became apparent. I think this is my first Radix - thanks - but I'm glad we didn't get this one last week...for a while I thought I'd never make it; a good experience all round and plenty of fresh annotations for my Bradfords. I still have about half a dozen wordplays to understand, but I think I'll sleep on it.

[tristram37]

I found the clues difficult and often obscure, and am still baffled by some of the word play. It is indeed obvious which grid to use - or is it? The message from the inserted/removed letters throws doubt, and the "alternative" instruction seems to contradict the whole thing. Or am I trying to be too clever?

[midazolam]

surely it is the case that you find what you think should be done, but the letters throw doubt (you have been crossed). You then look at the other possibility but this throws doubt ( you have been double crossed). Therefore you should submit exactly what you thought in the beginning.

[jacinth]

I suppose it's possible that either grid will be accepted. Filling in the 'alternative' box is evidence that the other grid has been completed, which is what the point is, I suppose. Hmmm....all a bit worrying.