Listener 4113 Liberty Bell by Pieman

[cluelessJoe]

Phew, that was a tough one

[mullingar]

Yes is like as in last week's.I see now,.fiendish. Haven't sorted the refrain out yet.Maybe tomorrow if the cricket doesn't get too exciting

[contendo]

Whilst you gods up there on Olympus are toying with the finer intricacies of linguistics we mortals are still fighting our way through the undergrowth in the foothills wondering how we can relate the anagrammed entries, most of whose letters are immutably fixed, to either of the verses quoted towards the end of the oration. The red lines seem to be trying to tell me something but are only really coherent in the north-east.

[daagg]

contendo, the anagrammed letters are, indeed, immutably fixed. However, have a good long look at the two in a row towards the bottom right and see if you can make a different sort of change. Think "red lines".

PS Does anyone know why they have to be red?

[Mysterons]

Perhaps to distinguish them from the black bars ?

[Clamzy]

I agree cJ that the debate shouldn't be necessary, but there are members here who enjoy "cryptic" preambles (see last week's thread).
We've heard nothing from speravi or jogler this week and I'd be interested in their opinions of this preamble.

[Ruthrobin]

Clamzy, I think you are just trying to make this the longest thread ever :) Have you noticed how the more complex the puzzle is, the longer the thread tends to be. I suppose that makes sense.

[growf]

Well, my weekly solve is all done...except for the very first letter of 51A. The clue's wordplay seems obvious - but I'll be damned if I can fit it to anything about "growth".

[JackDeCrow]

Would it help if you re-ordered the letters, Growf?

[Jogler]

Oh dear.... you have noticed our absence - and here I was thinking we could slide to the numbers undetected! In our defence we were sleeping on a pavement last Friday and didn't arrive home until early in the week. Since then we have been playing catch up on more than one front. That said, the hunter gatherer has soldiered through the clues and we have added and deleted more bars than you find in a gate. I have the quotation and I was, as many others on this thread, once again wowed by the rhetoric of a particular oration. However the final 4112 remains elusive. The preamble seems to be straight forward on its first reading but as we haven't managed the last part we obviously don't understand it at all! To sum up (in the words of one of drb's immortal countrymen) "you can't criticise what you don't understand".

[Mysterons]

growf - just for a change, 'large' = lg

[contendo]

Oh dear, Mysterons, I think that might upset a lot of people who may have had something else in the unchecked 51 cell. As for me, thanks Daagg for trying to help, but your suggestion only led me to a venereal neologism and I've decided to throw in the towel.

[trux]

Growf - do not forget that the final "changes" affect all the anagrammed entries

[Speravi]

In response to Clamzy's request for a comment on the preamble: by way of introduction, I should say that I thought that the cluing was perfectly fair (although I still have 35d to solve). To me, the preamble was clear on the maximisation process and the quotation formation and I have no criticism whatever in those regards. I believe that I have identified the refrain, but, unfortunately, am unable to see the changes that need to be made. Like other correspondents I can see some potential help from the red lines but having failed to complete the final step I can't really comment on the lette/word debate except to say that it isn't 'either/or' is it - being a letter doesn't stop it from also constituting a word, does it? Sorry if I'm missing a nuance that is apparent only from a full solution.

[Mysterons]

I think the debate was can 'q' (for example) be considered as a real word, rather than a letter/symbol/abbreviation/affix, ie is a letter always a word ? Some argued that because every letter is a noun, then the answer is yes - this seems fair enough, and hopefully will be accepted by the editors.

[borealis]

Whew - a week and a day. Is there a way we can "rate" this year's puzzles - a kind on online poll? This one has to be in my top six; difficult but very fair and great fun in the end.

I don't contribute much here, (I only look in once it's in the envelope - and that's usually when the thread has run its course), but I often find the comments here fun. I enjoyed Mysteron's "....... or R U ??". Plenty of reading this week!

Midazolam suggests that compilers omit "obsolete", "dialect" and the like - I would agree and add "one in Germany".

No respite this weekend; 1,2,3......4114 is palindromic.....

[Eril]

Yes, Contendo. Found that neologism too. Thoughts on it welcomed (Daagg or anyone!) since it seems that the word needs to be allowed if the result of the final step is to be clear. The BRB implies that it could be OK, but have not tracked down a single example of its use anywhere on the web (though I have learned rather more than is comfortable about what can happen 'down there').

[Cruncher]

I had to fiddle around with this a bit to make it work. First of all I had 4 more letters to add to the quotation by combining 2 pairs of single unchecked letters into 2 letter words. And then I have to move bars to make the final PDM work. Altogether I think there are just too many vaguenesses in the preamble for this to be entirely satisfactory - although the cluing is tough but very imaginative.

[Speravi]

I had all but given up... but I now understand the debate concerning single letters. Where there can be a diversity of honestly held opinion, I think the preamble should make clear what is required (although I acknowledge that such diversity may not always be anticipated by either composer or editors).

[IainGrace]

Finished it. What a slog, but well worth it. Rejoice...................