Listener 4113 Liberty Bell by Pieman

[cluelessJoe]

Phew, that was a tough one

[AndrewG-S]

Scorpius, you are right I withdraw the comment.

[Antmark]

With a couple of nudges from the ever helpful RR , I have reached the endgame. However the last 30% seem to present me with a size issue. Do I have to worry?

[perseverer]

Antmark - I don't think so. This may be part of the liberty referred to.

Scorpius - I have never figured out which of the various Chambers Dictionaries the WordWizard is based on but I don't think it is the BRB.

Have finally managed to decipher all the wordplay -it's amazing how impenetrable wordplay becomes so obvious once the penny drops!

[JackDeCrow]

Well, I see a bit of a pattern emerging and, to use Antmark's numbering system, the last 70% looks promising. But only if some of my "real words and names" are single letters. Is that really allowed or am I on a major detour?!

[trux]

To AG-S and Scorpius : re 40D, the Free Online Dictionary gives two noun definitions (a bristle ; or the stalk of a moss capsule) either of which could presumably be pluralised ; curîously my 1990 BRB doesn't give the word at all ! But it would still get eaten up by the modifications in the final endgame, I think so is something of a red herring.
To JdeC : yup - one-letter words seem a necessary "liberty" to be taken

[Arcticpenguin]

Finally sorted out all the clues and the quotation. Now the last bit - looks as if there's only 5 squares that can be changed without affecting the "normal" answers. Can't see anything stright away though.

[bobbycollins]

Wonderful stuff, S-matrix, that's cheered up a dull afternoon at the office. I even showed it to a(non-listener(er)) colleague.

Sorry about the leaves, but they ended up with cluelessjoe before I has chance to leave them for the robins. Anyway, Mrs bobbycollins would have nagged me to death - they froze to the lawn last year. Oh, and I never did bother to continue. I'm way too busy with Mark Twain's Autobiography (just out). The last one that I had done & dusted was news quiz.

[dr b]

bobbyc, I would be interested in your opinion of the book. MT is my favorite author, and Mrs dr b has hinted that this may be an Xmas gift. But I'm a little leery of a 750 page VOLUME ONE which has 6 different editors. Feel free to reply to bbetker (at) yahoo.com if replying here would take the thread too far afield.

[Scorpius]

Trux, It doesn't matter what the Free Online Dictionary says, if there's no nounal form listed in Chambers or Oxford (and there isn't) then it's not allowed without a preamble warning, and even then the only other 'authorised' dictionary is Collins.

But, as you say, the issue is academic in the context of this puzzle.

[perseverer]

Trux, on the same theme, I suspect (and apologies if I am wrong) that on putting the clue answer into online dictionaries you have been give the meanings of the nounal form.

[trux]

warning heeded ! never trust the online sources ,,, as I said, the only adjectives listed in 1990 BRB ended in ---ose and ---aceous ... so they've made this one in the last 20 years anyhow, haha

[Scorpius]

Arcticpenguin, I don't know which of us right, but I have 8 cells that could, in theory change. I say "in theory" because in one case I cannot see what alternative letter would result in a real words/ names. In two cases anagrammed answers cross each other.

[Clamzy]

By mistake I got the grid entry to 35 down early on. There's a Toyota car of that name. Stick in an H and Bob's your uncle. The main reason for my tardiness was 47 across. I knew from the wordplay that I had the right letters but could find no such word. I concluded it must be an anagram but even Quinapalus failed to find one. I checked and re-checked the crossing down answers but could find no errors, so in desperation turned to Google. Images flashed onto my screen before I had finished typing in the word - Doh!
This is typical of my solving weekends; taking longer on one clue than others take to solve the whole puzzle. The brilliant opening to this thread by cJ had me in tucks. Close to home? No,bull'seye:-)

[perseverer]

Scorpius/Arcticpenguin - just wondered if you had tried to enter the red bars?

[serpentinew]

Late start for me this week.
Am having great fun with this one, if fun is the right word. Can see the wordplay to all bar 2 of the clues - after much thumbing of Chambers (though the wordplay to 20a baffles me) and 35d, even with the previous comments makes no sense yet.
As to the next step - removing the missing bars - fair enough, quite straighforward and this checks some letters 8 (2 sets of 3 and 2 singles) by my reckoning before the potential 2 letter words, which makes an even number and not the 11 perseverer quotes - so must be missing something. Though I'm yet to make any sense of them.
As to its enjoyment level - unless the final bit is really good, there has been very little in this that has amused me

[perseverer]

Serpentinew - Have to say I didn't understand the reference to 2 letter words, and stand by my 11 -and suggest you check the make up of your 8.

[serpentinew]

Perseverer - I was n't questioning your 11 - now I see the answer to that step, just venting my spleen for want of a better sequence of words. Just 35dn and the representation to go.

[jamesah]

Fallen at the final hurdle again! I have to admire contributors who can work out what the third sentence of the preamble means! Do all the maximised words have to be shown? (e.g no bar in line 2) And does this matter for the final part? Also, am I right in thinking that the so far unknown refrain is closely connected to the quotation? I enjoyed the difficult cluing and the working out of the quotation. I wonder whether the refrain is as famous as the quotation.

[contendo]

I remain stuck at the quotation stage, despite having 11 letters as specified by perseverer. They don't make any quotation that I recognize. Am tempted to give up at this stage as there's a limit to how much nudging one can accept. I don't follow serpentinew's reference to 2 sets of 3. I have only one threesome. Another word with 3 unches keeps one of them when the 2 intervening bars are removed. Ah well...