Listener 4113 Liberty Bell by Pieman

[cluelessJoe]

Phew, that was a tough one

[dr b]

jamesah, I would suggest you read the full text, or better yet watch the video, of the source of the 4-word quotation. You will get some guidance as to the refrain, and get to watch one of the greatest speeches in history as a bonus.

[serpentinew]

Contendo - On reflection, i.e. when I could see the answer its a 4, a 3, a 2 and 2 singles that comprise the statement. My earlier ramblings were just that.

[daagg]

A late start, and a later finish this week - this is definitely challenging. Like several others, I didn't get 35dn until after sorting out everything else. The final step made me swallow hard, as it went against deep instincts, but the end result is rather fun. I have to say that I was fairly well down the Monty Python route at one point - but their's doesn't have a refrain, I suppose.

[midazolam]

Late contribution from me this week, with so many commitments. I thought this was very enjoyable and given the restriction Pieman has given himself it was another intelligent grid construction. I think "that" bar was a late mistake, as I am sure Pieman would have constructed the puzzle without it.

I have been suggesting for a long time whether the listener needs to include "obsolete", "dialect", "scottish" etc. etc. words in the clues. This crossword was not made over difficult without them, but it was harder. After all the Listener is meant to be one of the toughest crosswords around. Clues sound so much nicer without them (and they are easier to write). The Magpie does not specify they are included, so I wonder if the Listener will become more lenient with their inclusion given the recent change of editors.

Back to 4113: A pleasing crossword all round. I think the hints have been kept to a minimum this week so can we keep it that way as anything more will give it away.

[Mysterons]

serpentinew - 'he' = a , 'closed' = to

I make it 4 'singles' in the quotation letters ?

[serpentinew]

Cheers Mysterons for 20a wordplay - as to the count, my 2 is going down which would be 2 singles going across.

[contendo]

Eureka! Finally got the quote. I had stupidly omitted to fill in 3 bars. No 2-letter words involved then. Now for the difficult bit.

[AndrewG-S]

contendo, try plugging your letters into the anagram solver at oneacross

http://www.oneacross.com

[Mysterons]

.... or this one:

http://anagram-solver.utsire.com/

My 'singles' are all completely isolated serpentinew, one at the start of an across, one at the end of an across, and 2 at the ends of downs.

[AndrewG-S]

I prefer your one Mysterons as it allows for ?, thanks for the link.

[contendo]

I use wordsmith.org/anagram, but as noted in my last entry, I've got the quote.

[Mysterons]

Incidentally, JackdeCrow queried above whather there are some single-letter words - I would have thought that the changes affecting anagrammed entries mean the answer to this has to be no.

[trux]

No - not so - single letter words will be required - if you have got that far, you'll see the necessary "liberty" required to complete the "liberty" (btw, no-one yet has commended Pieman on his title, so let me be the first !)

[daagg]

dr b, I have just watched the video - for the first time ever I am slightly ashamed to say. I can see why it is still remembered.

[jamesah]

Thanks dr b, I remember watching a video of the speech about 10 years ago a few miles from where the orator was killed. I think that I can guess the refrain but I haven't got any idea how to represent it. It would have been nice for us lesser mortals if some indication had been given about the nature of the changes needed since there are a number of possibilities(as the crossword was quite tough anyway)

[Mysterons]

The title is neat, but I still can't follow your logic trux - surely the liberty can be completed perfectly well with 3 blank cells ?

[trux]

... I think either blank or filled would be acceptable (and it would be overly pernickety for No. 63 to judge otherwise, IMHO) - after all, the single letters are all listed in BRB. I submitted with them left in, so perhaps am defending my cause ! Vive la liberté, I say....

[cluelessJoe]

Happy Thanksgiving dr b and compatriots.

[Mysterons]

I do hope you are correct trux, but the changes leave only 'real words/names', and though the single letters are listed, they aren't words (in the sense that, for instance, 'a' is a word)

[perseverer]

Chambers describes each of the single letters of the alphabet as a noun, and therefore, presumably, they are words. At least one of those involved here has a meaning beyond the individual letter.