The visually-challenged God

[naomi24]

From the Koran: "When forty-two nights have passed over the "drops" Allah sends an angel to it' who shapes it and makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, 0! Lord, is it male or female? and your Lord decides and the angel records it".

So an angel shapes the human foetus, and Allah decides its gender, so why don't either of them notice when a serious error occurs in the handiwork, resulting in a severely handicapped child, conjoined twins, or even an hermaphrodite?

Maybe God's mislaid his glasses.

[RATTER15]

God wears glasses? So I was made in his image!!!

[ummmm]

My daughter is blind in one eye....hmmmm!!

[bookbinder]

In order to give an answer to this question, one has to believe that there is a God, and that's another question entirely. For those who don't believe in a God, explaining away the birth of a deformed child is easy: it's just a matter of chance.

[RATTER15]

So God is forbidden to approach his Alter?

He really didnt think this out when he banned anybody with a fault or blemish from approaching his alter!

Im sure it will all become clear when Keyplus arrives.

[keyplus90]

What determination of sex has got to do with disability? And then Islamic view of disability is not as it is in the dictionary. Without going into details, Islamic view of disability is that a person with lesser ability than others in few areas. And therefore less questionable for his deeds. First of all Islam believes in God and hardships keep people closer to God. Otherwise go to a hospital and then go to a dance party and let me know where people thought more about God. Then Islam believes in hereafter and gives more importance to that life. However if you do not believe in that and have your own reasons to do so that does not make you right and others wrong. That is simply your own belief. Because not believing in God, itself is a belief and nothing more than that.

For a simple example a blind person would not be questioned why did he not help another blind person in crossing the road but a person with eyes would be answerable for not doing so.

[mibn2cweus]

It would appear some of us are endowed by our creator with not only physical disabilities . . .

Erm . . . don't ask me how I know that. :o/

[naomi24]

Keyplus, that's no answer. The question is why, when a baby is formed in this miraculous manner by an angel, is it born blind in the first place?

Okay, let's leave disability aside just for a moment (although if your book is to be believed, then logically that must be as the result of the angel's sloppy work and God's failure to spot it). So God decides the gender - there's no doubt about that is there? Why then does he decide that a baby will be an hermaphrodite? Can't he make his mind up?

So the hereafter gives more importance to the life of a disabled person? Is that some kind of compensation that God offers by way of an apology for his mistakes?

By the way, I'll tell you yet again, atheism is not a belief. It's the absence of belief.

Mibs, I reckon you had a learner on the job. ;o)

[Craftypig]

If "god" decides the gender of a baby why is so much emphasis put on "male" children in islam and if "god" has decided that a child is to be a female why are they treated as second class citizens in islam?

[keyplus90]

////Keyplus, that's no answer.///

I have heard that before so I would leave it as it is as with all my experience of over three years I know what ever I would say, or write in the end that is what I would get. So wait for someone else to give you answer to your question.

Hermaphrodites – Are they ever 50/50? No, never. Their sex can be determined depending upon their organs.

Craftypig – What you said I (and every single Muslim) have heard that so many times too. But the only thing I would suggest to you is that just study more about Islam.

[JonnyBoy12]

It does not surprise me to learn that God wears glasses. He is as old as the universe so it is not bad going really. Noone will live to be His age in this world.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, yes, leave it as you always do when you don't have a rational answer to a rational question. So much for your continuous claims that you answer every question. Never mind - at least you concede that we must depend upon our doctors to determine the true gender of hermaphrodites because we can't rely upon Allah to get it right. Maybe that's because neither your angels nor your mythical god play any part in the decision-making process to begin with - and whether you like it or not, that's a fact of life so accept it and live with it. Islam is missing a trick here, Keyplus. If only your book didn't spout such utter superstitious and demonstrably inaccurate nonsense Islam could absolve Allah and his incompetent angels of all responsibility - but as it is, it makes them accountable - and there is no escape!

I can't speak for Craftypig, but I can say he's right. Speaking from my own fairly extensive experience, which includes discussions with imams at the Al-Azhar Mosque in Cairo, generally considered the foremost institution in the world for the study of Islamic law, it was made quite clear to me that women within Islam are considered to be less than men. Just to give you one example, I asked them if I would be allowed to teach - and the answer was 'yes - but only the children. Men must teach the adults.' So that, in Islam's opinion, makes me less capable than a man - no? Now tell me women aren't considered inferior.

Incidentally, Keyplus, one of those imans told me that the name of every Muslim in the world is registered there - which is, of course, complete nonsense - but just out of interest, is your name on their list?

[sandyRoe]

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An Angel writing in a book of gold:

Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The Vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."

"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the Angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerily still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men."

The Angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And shoed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And, lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest!

Perhaps the names are registered here

[naomi24]

Got my doubts.

[sandyRoe]

The road to salvation is littered with doubts.

[naomi24]

Oh, I no longer see it as 'debating' with Keyplus, Birdie. I just try to highlight the facts in the hope that he will eventually be honest enough with himself to concede that they are facts - although of course, after a lifetime of being taught to believe without question the glaring inaccuracies his book contains, I realise that's difficult for him to come to terms with.

[keyplus90]

Ok please someone give a trophy to naomi. That is what I have learnt doing here.

[keyplus90]

And sorry forgot to mention. Another trophy for birdie please.

Let's see how many people will give up Islam after this.

[naomi24]

Sadly for you, Keyplus, that sort of silly response is clearly all you've learnt here. Difficult when you're presented with undeniable rationality, isn't it - but lying to yourself doesn't make your book any less inaccurate - and that's another fact.

By the way, if you click on Birdie's link, I've left a message there for you. I'm sure you'll read it - but I'm not so sure you will be able to bring yourself to respond sensibly - if at all.

[keyplus90]

////Sadly for you, Keyplus, that sort of silly response is clearly all you've learnt here.////

No, once again you are wrong. I have learnt something else as well, not to waste time and energy. That few people are here just for wasting time and they know that answers “they” want to read or see. Anything different from their faith, knowledge or sense, they would call it irrational and would never accept even if it has backing of the most known people who THEY talk about.

Having learnt that I learnt one more thing. Just to say to those people that they are the winners. But rest assure if anyone (apart from usual suspects) is here for proper debate or have genuine question, thoughts or concern then keyplus90 has always given answers according to his limited knowledge and always will. You leave as many messages as you like on birdie’s link but same goes to him too. He is a special case, I will respond to anyone else genuine queries about the twisted information about Islam he spreads, but to him I would only have face to face debate whenever he is ready because that is the only way he would admit receiving answers. Perhaps you can convince him and help him too. So in that regard he is a “winner” too.