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//Retrochic
Naomi -everything anyone ever does reaps reward or consequence.
13:51 Mon 27th Jul 2015//
As a philosophical exercise it would be interesting to debate that statement. Why is it so? Why should it be so? Or, is it only that we feel it should be so?
As an opener, I was going to say that sitting on one's posterior, all day, would have no reward or consequences but then I recalled things like piles, DVTs, two years off your lifespan (recent news article, will google if challenged)…
The brain certainly possesses a 'pleasure centre' which lets off mood altering chemicals when a life-enhancing activity is performed. This predisposes us to the belief that "correct" actions lead to rewards. Heaven may be abstract but perhaps it stimulates the pleasure centre for faith adherents. It is a comforting belief.
Naomi -everything anyone ever does reaps reward or consequence.
13:51 Mon 27th Jul 2015//
As a philosophical exercise it would be interesting to debate that statement. Why is it so? Why should it be so? Or, is it only that we feel it should be so?
As an opener, I was going to say that sitting on one's posterior, all day, would have no reward or consequences but then I recalled things like piles, DVTs, two years off your lifespan (recent news article, will google if challenged)…
The brain certainly possesses a 'pleasure centre' which lets off mood altering chemicals when a life-enhancing activity is performed. This predisposes us to the belief that "correct" actions lead to rewards. Heaven may be abstract but perhaps it stimulates the pleasure centre for faith adherents. It is a comforting belief.
Hypo; It's called Karma which refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual, influence the future of that individual, Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and future suffering.
Or in other words; you reap what you sow.
Or in other words; you reap what you sow.
Retrochic (15:30)
Its been 40-odd years since I was in school, and I have no children or contact with schools these days. So I am probably not talking from a point of extreme knowledge here !
But its not just fundamentalist Christian Schools where they teach that the planet is only 600 years old....Muslims believe this as well.
Despite what I said about my own Catholic upbringing and schooling, I am concerned that children are going to be confused when a Science Teachers says one thing, and Preacher says another. I don't remember being taught that the earth is 6000 years old when I was a little Catholic boy, but that is what a growing number of children are being taught today.
As far as I am concerned, Religion should be taught in Church, Temple or Mosque, not at school.
Its been 40-odd years since I was in school, and I have no children or contact with schools these days. So I am probably not talking from a point of extreme knowledge here !
But its not just fundamentalist Christian Schools where they teach that the planet is only 600 years old....Muslims believe this as well.
Despite what I said about my own Catholic upbringing and schooling, I am concerned that children are going to be confused when a Science Teachers says one thing, and Preacher says another. I don't remember being taught that the earth is 6000 years old when I was a little Catholic boy, but that is what a growing number of children are being taught today.
As far as I am concerned, Religion should be taught in Church, Temple or Mosque, not at school.
@mikey4444
Young Earth Creationism and its encroachment on schools - I also didn't learn about the 6000 year thing until the era of modems, bulletin boards and usenet newsgroups - appears to be a recent, virulent reaction to the fear that science would undermine chapter one, as if the entire bible was as flimsy as a House of Cards: one out, all out*
* as opposed to "5 out all out"; a cricketing expression. Ahem.
@khandro
If karma was real why, in the words of the Richard Thompson song, do "Good Things Happen to Bad People"?
Why do bad fates often befall totally innocent children?
Young Earth Creationism and its encroachment on schools - I also didn't learn about the 6000 year thing until the era of modems, bulletin boards and usenet newsgroups - appears to be a recent, virulent reaction to the fear that science would undermine chapter one, as if the entire bible was as flimsy as a House of Cards: one out, all out*
* as opposed to "5 out all out"; a cricketing expression. Ahem.
@khandro
If karma was real why, in the words of the Richard Thompson song, do "Good Things Happen to Bad People"?
Why do bad fates often befall totally innocent children?
Hypognosis...as you are probably aware, "Young Earth Creationism" has only been invented recently, by some Christians, mostly American, because their previous position was becoming, day by day, ever more untenable.
As you say, they are afraid that science has disproven most of what they have been brought up to believe. And it has !
But never underestimate the ability of us humans to be taken in by such errant nonsense. You only have to look at the recent rise in popularity of Scientology to see how gullible some people can be.
Its also interesting to see how almost all of these "new" religions have been invented in America....Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Christian Scientists, etc, etc.
Doesn't say much for the American education system does it !
As you say, they are afraid that science has disproven most of what they have been brought up to believe. And it has !
But never underestimate the ability of us humans to be taken in by such errant nonsense. You only have to look at the recent rise in popularity of Scientology to see how gullible some people can be.
Its also interesting to see how almost all of these "new" religions have been invented in America....Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Christian Scientists, etc, etc.
Doesn't say much for the American education system does it !
@mikey4444
The American education system is - at least I suspect it is - designed to churn out 'individuals' who are both usefully skilled and productive but also are obedient little consumers, so that what one skilled person makes, many others buy and they all make a decent living and get along (oh and a few lucky stards get rich, into the bargain).
Cults are well placed to take advantage of their inbuilt plasticity.
By all accounts, Scientologists use techniques not dissimilar to Timeshare salespeople. They hold you in 'seminars' for so long that people cave in and sign up, as that appears to be the only way to make them let you go.
Once you are financially invested in something, to any great depth and there is prospect of total loss for attempting to quit, you tend to want to stay in - even when you tell yourself it's a **** product.
The American education system is - at least I suspect it is - designed to churn out 'individuals' who are both usefully skilled and productive but also are obedient little consumers, so that what one skilled person makes, many others buy and they all make a decent living and get along (oh and a few lucky stards get rich, into the bargain).
Cults are well placed to take advantage of their inbuilt plasticity.
By all accounts, Scientologists use techniques not dissimilar to Timeshare salespeople. They hold you in 'seminars' for so long that people cave in and sign up, as that appears to be the only way to make them let you go.
Once you are financially invested in something, to any great depth and there is prospect of total loss for attempting to quit, you tend to want to stay in - even when you tell yourself it's a **** product.
Retro;
//Why do bad fates often befall totally innocent children?//
I think you are looking at that the wrong way round, you should ask why do some wicked people inflict cruelty on the innocent.
If you mean by 'bad fates' something like being killed in an accident, then that I'm afraid that can happen to any of us at any time, it is a 'risk of life' and being 'innocent' does not give immunity.
//Why do bad fates often befall totally innocent children?//
I think you are looking at that the wrong way round, you should ask why do some wicked people inflict cruelty on the innocent.
If you mean by 'bad fates' something like being killed in an accident, then that I'm afraid that can happen to any of us at any time, it is a 'risk of life' and being 'innocent' does not give immunity.
"Retro;
//Why do bad fates often befall totally innocent children?//
I think you are looking at that the wrong way round, you should ask why do some wicked people inflict cruelty on the innocent?"
Wrong way round, Khandro? Well I never! Retro's clear-minded question exposes the internal contradictions (or at the very least the severe limitations) of both the Karma theory and the Good God theory. In the former case because an individual's good intentions and actions can be thwarted by evil-doers, thus showing that Karma is not a universal principle. In the latter because it shows that the Good God lacks the competence to arrange the world in such a way as to avoid suffering.
//Why do bad fates often befall totally innocent children?//
I think you are looking at that the wrong way round, you should ask why do some wicked people inflict cruelty on the innocent?"
Wrong way round, Khandro? Well I never! Retro's clear-minded question exposes the internal contradictions (or at the very least the severe limitations) of both the Karma theory and the Good God theory. In the former case because an individual's good intentions and actions can be thwarted by evil-doers, thus showing that Karma is not a universal principle. In the latter because it shows that the Good God lacks the competence to arrange the world in such a way as to avoid suffering.
Hypo...but how could anyone believe in Scientology ?
Religions that were in invented 2000 years ago are one thing...the majority couldn't read or write back then and I bet they didn't have internet terminals in their Libraries !
But Scientology was invented in the late 50's and early 60's, when they had universal education in America. Its completely beyond me how anyone could get taken in by such obvious drivel !
Maybe Mork was a real person afterall !
Religions that were in invented 2000 years ago are one thing...the majority couldn't read or write back then and I bet they didn't have internet terminals in their Libraries !
But Scientology was invented in the late 50's and early 60's, when they had universal education in America. Its completely beyond me how anyone could get taken in by such obvious drivel !
Maybe Mork was a real person afterall !
@mikey4444
//Hypo...but how could anyone believe in Scientology ? //
I don't know enough about it to even begin guessing the answer to that one.
I suggested, previously, that they sell it, just like any other product. Consider what goes on in your own mind when you convince yourself that you 'need' a particular product. That is to say think of one example where you'd thought of a need prior to seeing an advert which clinches your decision and another example where you acknowledged the need immediately after seeing the commercial.
I suspect analagous processes are at work.
New spectacles indicated for khandro, after misattributing my comment to "Retro". (Which one?!?) (v_e gets a free pass, for understanding the point I was making)
@khandro
For the record, I only meant bad things happening to those who you would expect karma to treat well, as both their past behaviour and their intentions are innocent. I did not think to invoke third parties with evil intent towards naïve victims, which one would expect to bring severe bad karma onto the perpetrator. Sadly, the likes of Sovile lived to be old and grey. It undermines the whole concept when things like that happen.
//Hypo...but how could anyone believe in Scientology ? //
I don't know enough about it to even begin guessing the answer to that one.
I suggested, previously, that they sell it, just like any other product. Consider what goes on in your own mind when you convince yourself that you 'need' a particular product. That is to say think of one example where you'd thought of a need prior to seeing an advert which clinches your decision and another example where you acknowledged the need immediately after seeing the commercial.
I suspect analagous processes are at work.
New spectacles indicated for khandro, after misattributing my comment to "Retro". (Which one?!?) (v_e gets a free pass, for understanding the point I was making)
@khandro
For the record, I only meant bad things happening to those who you would expect karma to treat well, as both their past behaviour and their intentions are innocent. I did not think to invoke third parties with evil intent towards naïve victims, which one would expect to bring severe bad karma onto the perpetrator. Sadly, the likes of Sovile lived to be old and grey. It undermines the whole concept when things like that happen.
-- answer removed --
Khandro, with pleasure. He is not promoting a baseless belief system as the proponents of religion do. He’s telling the truth and his criticism is justified so unless you see nothing wrong in the unacceptable religious practices he’s criticising, I don’t understand why you think he’s bigoted. I’ve checked out the source as you suggested, and whilst I don’t understand the need for the use of profanity I can understand why the author is angry at the blight upon this planet that is religion. In my opinion no child should be confronted with religion in any shape or form.
n. But my question was referring to your assertion that "one can't be indoctrinated with nothing", and asks; do you not think that such a distorted rant is "nothing" and would showing it to a child not be also indoctrination on a par with the worst excesses of extremism in religion: excesses which are not supported by anyone I know, and nobody on here?
Khandro, he’s not ‘indoctrinating’ anyone with anything. He’s not teaching that for which there is no evidence as fact as religion does – he’s exposing religion for what it really is. Truth isn’t indoctrination. As for your question concerning children, I refer you to my last answer on the subject. If religion didn’t exist, there would be nothing to refute.
