being good through desire or fear...

[joko]

does being good only because your religion tells you to because you wont get to heaven etc if you dont - and therefore is through fear rather than actually wanting to be good - count as genuine goodness...?

are some religious people therefore not 'truly' good in the heart and soul, seeing as theyre just following orders...?

so are the people who are not at all religious yet good of heart and soul because they want to be, the real saints iin the world?

obviously i mean SOME, not all...

[Marijn]

I agree with Naomi, that some people (I hope; most people) are good to other people because the other people need help/support. They can be good in a quiet, anonymous way and they don't expect thanks, recognition or brownie points in heaven.

[jno]

if a gunman needed help pulling a trigger to shoot someone, I wouldn't offer it. I may be compassionate but I still operate to standards of "good" that I define to suit myself, not to suit gunmen. I think I'm saying the same as ludwig here.

[ummmm]

How many people weigh up the pros and cons of helping someone. You see it often, someone collapses in the street and people pass them by. The person who stops, stops instinctively. It's their nature, the way the were raised, In their programming...whatever....it has nothing to do with God.

[naomi24]

Ummmm, very well said. That's exactly what I mean. For some it is purely instinct.

Ludwig, I'd like to clarify my comment to you. I said //People are all different, and it really is a mistake to judge everyone by one's own standards.//....

I'm afraid that might have read as a personal criticism, so I'll expand. What I meant was we can't assume that everyone thinks the same way as we do because it's very difficult for anyone to understand the inner workings of the mind of another. For example, an atheist can't understand why a believer refuses to acknowledge the obvious faults in his religion, and the believer cannot conceive why an atheist doesn't believe in his god when it's all so real to him. Neither can really understand how the other thinks. (Of course, that shouldn't stop any of us from putting our case). ;o)

My apologies if that sounded a bit harsh or unfriendly, Ludwig. It really wasn't meant to. x

[ludwig]

No problem Naomi - thanks for clarifying.

[joko]

could there be a certain element of subconsciously feeling the need to be good in order not to be punished in heaven...?

i mean you dont help a dying stranger thinking, 'ooh god will like this' ... but is it so ingrained in out psyche and passed down for generations in our families that we dont even realise that its in the back of our minds?


there are people who inside, have desires to commit sins - such as having sex with another person out of wedlock, or pinching things from work, or not declaring something they should to the government, or punching that annoying bloke in the pub... but they dont, because they think its ungodly behaviour, turn the other cheek, thou shalt not etc... for some its a very definite thought process... so the fact that they dont do the things they would like to... does this make them truly good...?
or is the fact that they 'want' to do what defines them?
is showing restraint good enough?

[ummmm]

It's not 'ungodly' behaviour.

[sara3]

I would and have stopped for people collapsed/fitting in the street, and helped a poor old man who almost slipped under a train at Kings Cross. amazing who just stands by, but maybe I have an automatic "help people" gene!

anyway, some drunk in the street just lunged towards me "have you got a pound?" and I said "no", which was a lie.

[sara3]

(and I wasn't struck down by lightning)

[joko]

yes umm, but they think it is... it comes under the 10 commandments...

[naomi24]

^^ That doesn't apply for a non-believer.

[joko]

yes naomi, but my OP is referring to believers...

[ummmm]

Some think it is....Even when I believed in God I never thought of peoples bad actions as ungodly. More immoral...and no one needs God to have a good set of morals. Saying that, most of the people I know are Catholics, hasn't stopped some of them doing bad things. So for many, heaven or hell does not come into it.

[naomi24]

Joko. I looked at the bit in your question that refers to those 'who are not at all religious'.

[ludwig]

Where's the merit in doing something good out of instinct anyway? If you're not making a conscious moral choice you can't really take credit for your actions can you?

You're either being driven by millions of years of inherited evolutionary behaviour, or some 'goodness gene' implanted by god perhaps, depending on how you look at it.

[ummmm]

Do people only do good things for credit? I think not...

[naomi24]

Ummmm has it in one. It's a mistake to think that people will only help others if there's something in it for them, because that really isn't true.

[ludwig]

I'm posing philosophical questions in the spirit of the debate ummmm. I'm not having a go at people who do things.

[ludwig]

sorry - that should have read 'people who do good things'

[ludwig]

The phrase 'take credit for' is really just a turn of phrase by the way - I wasn't suggesting that everyone who does a good deed expects a medal or even any thanks for it.
I'm just asking, if it's instinctive, it doesn't come from a conscious choice you've made, so where does it come from?