ChatterBank0 min ago
Why Doesn’T Islam Educate Its Men?
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Two items in the news this week that, once again, highlight Islam’s archaic attitudes towards women and its continuing tolerance of the failings of men. First, the appalling story of the Saudi cleric who brutally raped and murdered his five year old daughter – and was excused with a fine - and second, the instance of another Saudi cleric who says that all female babies should be hidden under burkas in order to ward off sex attacks.
Islam’s stance appears to be that, faced with temptation, men are helpless victims, and its solution, therefore, is to remove that temptation by hiding females from view. Rather than requiring men to accept full responsibility for their own licentious and inexcusable behaviour, isn’t it time that Islam stopped justifying the subjugation of women by acknowledging that the fault rests not with the female, but with its own attitudes towards them?
Islam’s stance appears to be that, faced with temptation, men are helpless victims, and its solution, therefore, is to remove that temptation by hiding females from view. Rather than requiring men to accept full responsibility for their own licentious and inexcusable behaviour, isn’t it time that Islam stopped justifying the subjugation of women by acknowledging that the fault rests not with the female, but with its own attitudes towards them?
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I do think there is a problem in expecting SkyPlus to denounce every evil committed by members of his religion.
Was every Christian expected to denounce Andreas Bhrevik, or did we take it as obvious that they couldn't apologise for things they weren't responsible for? When a man commits a rape, do all the men on here feel the need to apologise to women for what's happened? Should every atheist apologise for Stalin, every Christian for Hitler etc etc?
Some people on here have, in the past, expressed views about issues such as the UK apologising for slavery, saying it's stupid and that we can't apologise for our ancestors. Are they being consistent by demanding SkyPlus becomes the whipping boy for all wrongdoings committed at the hands of Islamists?
SkyPlus may have views that not everyone appreciates (including me), but I'm not convinced it's reasonable to infer anything from it if he's not quite quick enough to take personal responsibility for apologising for actions he's not actually committed. This isn't to say he can't deplore a particular action, but we shouldn't expect it or read anything into his failure to do so. Obviously, if he comments in support of something, then his comments are fair game, as are anyone's.
Was every Christian expected to denounce Andreas Bhrevik, or did we take it as obvious that they couldn't apologise for things they weren't responsible for? When a man commits a rape, do all the men on here feel the need to apologise to women for what's happened? Should every atheist apologise for Stalin, every Christian for Hitler etc etc?
Some people on here have, in the past, expressed views about issues such as the UK apologising for slavery, saying it's stupid and that we can't apologise for our ancestors. Are they being consistent by demanding SkyPlus becomes the whipping boy for all wrongdoings committed at the hands of Islamists?
SkyPlus may have views that not everyone appreciates (including me), but I'm not convinced it's reasonable to infer anything from it if he's not quite quick enough to take personal responsibility for apologising for actions he's not actually committed. This isn't to say he can't deplore a particular action, but we shouldn't expect it or read anything into his failure to do so. Obviously, if he comments in support of something, then his comments are fair game, as are anyone's.
majority of these were Christians, watch the part on burning books, this is what so disturbing about seeing others do it, as i have in recent days.
It takes one man with a vision, one man with a corrupted mind to make others complicit in evil.
http://
It takes one man with a vision, one man with a corrupted mind to make others complicit in evil.
http://
Waldo, please don't misunderstand me, I am talking about specific points, not generalities. It is well known that when it suits, he will pop up to "defend" things. I remember a specific point raised, not by me where he was asked to condem suicide bombers and he wouldn't.
You cannot tar all with the same brush but until there is condemnation from the people it affects what are we supposed to think?
You cannot tar all with the same brush but until there is condemnation from the people it affects what are we supposed to think?
You are right as well as wrong. You are right in saying that men need to control their own temptation but you are wrong to suggest that Islam subjugates or justifies subjugation of women by any means.
There have been a media war against Islam since 9/11 and every individual act by a single person is associated to Islam as a religion. If someone called David Goldberg commits a crime then David is talked about and blamed in the media and not Judaism, if someone called Lakshmi kant commits a crime then Lakshmi kant is the culprit and not Hinduism, if someone called Adolf Hitler kills millions of Jews then Hitler is talked about as bad and not Christianity, however if someone called Muhammad Salim commits a crime then Islam is blamed.
That is the story of media war but that mainly started after 9/11. But before that, in my mind Muslims are themselves who have damaged Islam more than anyone else. Simplest reason behind that is that they stopped acting upon teachings of Quran. And instead few individuals gave a much personalised view of do’s and don’ts and associated that to the religion, where that should have been just an opinion. A religion that puts so much emphasis on education that the first ever verse revealed talked about reading, learning, or educating yourself. Quran is full of verses that talks about getting knowledge, education etc. And nowhere has it restricted it to knowledge only about religion. So core problem is acting upon Quran. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to know that when Muslims acted upon Quran, they produced quite a few very knowledgeable people who are still talked about in quite a few fields of life as pioneers.
I will give example related to the subject of this thread. Verse in the Quran that speaks about women dressing modestly is this one,
And tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be
modest…And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and
be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is
apparent….”
(Qur'an: Chapter 24, Verses 30-31)
Now unfortunately men forget that the verse instructs men to lower the gaze before it even talks about women. Where I believe that majority of the people act upon that but a handful just talks and acts upon the second half of the verse and forgets the first half. And then of course media picks up those handfuls and forgets about all of the rest.
There have been a media war against Islam since 9/11 and every individual act by a single person is associated to Islam as a religion. If someone called David Goldberg commits a crime then David is talked about and blamed in the media and not Judaism, if someone called Lakshmi kant commits a crime then Lakshmi kant is the culprit and not Hinduism, if someone called Adolf Hitler kills millions of Jews then Hitler is talked about as bad and not Christianity, however if someone called Muhammad Salim commits a crime then Islam is blamed.
That is the story of media war but that mainly started after 9/11. But before that, in my mind Muslims are themselves who have damaged Islam more than anyone else. Simplest reason behind that is that they stopped acting upon teachings of Quran. And instead few individuals gave a much personalised view of do’s and don’ts and associated that to the religion, where that should have been just an opinion. A religion that puts so much emphasis on education that the first ever verse revealed talked about reading, learning, or educating yourself. Quran is full of verses that talks about getting knowledge, education etc. And nowhere has it restricted it to knowledge only about religion. So core problem is acting upon Quran. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to know that when Muslims acted upon Quran, they produced quite a few very knowledgeable people who are still talked about in quite a few fields of life as pioneers.
I will give example related to the subject of this thread. Verse in the Quran that speaks about women dressing modestly is this one,
And tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be
modest…And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and
be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is
apparent….”
(Qur'an: Chapter 24, Verses 30-31)
Now unfortunately men forget that the verse instructs men to lower the gaze before it even talks about women. Where I believe that majority of the people act upon that but a handful just talks and acts upon the second half of the verse and forgets the first half. And then of course media picks up those handfuls and forgets about all of the rest.
trouble is you have so many exponents of your peaceful religion, that are not peaceful, nor indeed are willing to see that shooting a child because she stands up for education for girls, or strapping a bomb to your body, not to kill soldiers but other Muslims, or flying planes into buildings, killing many, of all faiths, colours, nationalities, does your argument no end of harm.
We know Europe's faults and its been raked over a million times, the waste of world wars, the genocide of millions for being the wrong colour, race, faith.
We know Europe's faults and its been raked over a million times, the waste of world wars, the genocide of millions for being the wrong colour, race, faith.
I know it was just an oversight by Naomi when she talked about this person asking babies to put behind Buka, she forgot to read what another more responsible person said about that in the SAME NEWS article, but I will help her out and put it here,
////Sheikh Mohammed al-Jzlana, a former judge at the Saudi Board of Grievances, told the news channel that Sheikh Daoud's remarks had made the faith look bad. He urged people to ignore unofficial religious edicts, which he said were administered under special regulations set by Saudi authorities, which also appoints those entitled to issue them. The former judge said covering baby girls with burkas was 'an injustice' to children./////
////He urged people to ignore unofficial religious edicts,/////
But as I said in my first posts, few people will go out of their way to highlight an opinion of an individual, obviously find it very difficult to ignore.
And here is the complete link,
http://
////Sheikh Mohammed al-Jzlana, a former judge at the Saudi Board of Grievances, told the news channel that Sheikh Daoud's remarks had made the faith look bad. He urged people to ignore unofficial religious edicts, which he said were administered under special regulations set by Saudi authorities, which also appoints those entitled to issue them. The former judge said covering baby girls with burkas was 'an injustice' to children./////
////He urged people to ignore unofficial religious edicts,/////
But as I said in my first posts, few people will go out of their way to highlight an opinion of an individual, obviously find it very difficult to ignore.
And here is the complete link,
http://
/////Keyplus is a case in point again and again he has been asked to condem actions, done in the name of Allah, and repeatedly he has tried to defen those actions in the face of the most rational and determined opposition./////
Dave, give me a list of things you want me to condemn. I am going to save thins thread as a reference that I have condemned. Although Waldo tried to clarify that why should Skyplus( he was talking about me I believe) condemn other people’s actions. But I would say that even after I have condemned so many times still few people for a specific purpose or perhaps due to a very bad memory keep on asking again. So come on give me a list of the things you want me to condemn. But just remember after I have condemned I will ask you to condemned few things too and I will give you the list once you have given me yours.
Dave, give me a list of things you want me to condemn. I am going to save thins thread as a reference that I have condemned. Although Waldo tried to clarify that why should Skyplus( he was talking about me I believe) condemn other people’s actions. But I would say that even after I have condemned so many times still few people for a specific purpose or perhaps due to a very bad memory keep on asking again. So come on give me a list of the things you want me to condemn. But just remember after I have condemned I will ask you to condemned few things too and I will give you the list once you have given me yours.
-- answer removed --
Keyplus, //I know it was just an oversight by Naomi when she talked about this person asking babies to put behind Buka, she forgot to read what another more responsible person said about that in the SAME NEWS article, but I will help her out and put it here,//
It wasn’t an oversight. It’s not relevant to the question, which is clear enough. Islam subjects its women to a lifetime under wraps simply because it excuses without question its men’s baser – and debased - urges. In Islam’s view, woman, the temptress, is clearly the culprit - and since man, the innocent victim, is not expected to take responsibility for his own behaviour, rather than educate him to become a self-respecting member of the human race, Islam ‘cures’ the problem by hiding temptation from view. The rest of the world seems to manage well enough without subjecting women to the same conditions, so the questions are:
1 Why doesn’t Islam educate its men?
2 Why are women punished for a lifetime simply for the ‘crime’ of being women?
3 Why don’t Muslim men feel the sense of indignation that others would feel if tarred with a similarly humiliating brush?
Straight answers without the politics would be appreciated.
It wasn’t an oversight. It’s not relevant to the question, which is clear enough. Islam subjects its women to a lifetime under wraps simply because it excuses without question its men’s baser – and debased - urges. In Islam’s view, woman, the temptress, is clearly the culprit - and since man, the innocent victim, is not expected to take responsibility for his own behaviour, rather than educate him to become a self-respecting member of the human race, Islam ‘cures’ the problem by hiding temptation from view. The rest of the world seems to manage well enough without subjecting women to the same conditions, so the questions are:
1 Why doesn’t Islam educate its men?
2 Why are women punished for a lifetime simply for the ‘crime’ of being women?
3 Why don’t Muslim men feel the sense of indignation that others would feel if tarred with a similarly humiliating brush?
Straight answers without the politics would be appreciated.
Let me know when you would get staright answer to your twisted questions. Until then I will wait and see. I will wait and see Islam spreading for a very simple reason. And the reason is that you do not understand and have never tried to understand Islam but others do and have done. Good luck with another thread.
"She was asking for it, dressing like that" Ever heard that in this country? Islam may have the same idea. Rules on covering the hair and neck, on dressing modestly, are set to reduce the risk of promiscuous behaviour or sexual assault.The definition of modest attire differs from culture to culture but all have one.
Why does Susanna Reid's neckline get such attention? Are Muslims ringing up to complain at a hint of cleavage or are there loads of non-muslims complaining about 'inappropriate dressing' for the time of day? Why are women at Royal Ascot required to have hemlines at a certain level? This is all our current development of what is an old idea.
Why does Susanna Reid's neckline get such attention? Are Muslims ringing up to complain at a hint of cleavage or are there loads of non-muslims complaining about 'inappropriate dressing' for the time of day? Why are women at Royal Ascot required to have hemlines at a certain level? This is all our current development of what is an old idea.
Netti, you’re right!
Fred, //Rules on covering the hair and neck, on dressing modestly, are set to reduce the risk of promiscuous behaviour or sexual assault.The definition of modest attire differs from culture to culture but all have one.//
That’s the whole point Fred. Why are women expected to take responsibility for the failings of men? Muslim women, like other women, don’t have a problem, but nevertheless without a second thought for their wishes or their comfort, their men require them to spend their lives under wraps because they do have a problem in that they are apparently incapable of controlling themselves. Is that fair?
Fred, //Rules on covering the hair and neck, on dressing modestly, are set to reduce the risk of promiscuous behaviour or sexual assault.The definition of modest attire differs from culture to culture but all have one.//
That’s the whole point Fred. Why are women expected to take responsibility for the failings of men? Muslim women, like other women, don’t have a problem, but nevertheless without a second thought for their wishes or their comfort, their men require them to spend their lives under wraps because they do have a problem in that they are apparently incapable of controlling themselves. Is that fair?
And this is from a Woman (or a man, who knows) who claims to have an open mind. But can't read the other half of the news report on the same page.
Muslims might be behind in worldly education at present. But once there was time when people from where you and me are used to go to learn from them. Now it is other way around and that is known as simple up and down that comes in human history. But the “education” you are talking about, Muslim men are educated enough in that field or aspect of life. But unfortunately (for your) they do not think the way you want them to think and therefore they need educating. Knowing you for few years now, anyone needs educating who thinks or believes differently from you. I believe you need more educating about being less bias.
What can someone say when someone picks and chooses from within one news report? Nothing much really. Now that's your problem how you take that and how you try to score a point on the basis of that.
Muslims might be behind in worldly education at present. But once there was time when people from where you and me are used to go to learn from them. Now it is other way around and that is known as simple up and down that comes in human history. But the “education” you are talking about, Muslim men are educated enough in that field or aspect of life. But unfortunately (for your) they do not think the way you want them to think and therefore they need educating. Knowing you for few years now, anyone needs educating who thinks or believes differently from you. I believe you need more educating about being less bias.
What can someone say when someone picks and chooses from within one news report? Nothing much really. Now that's your problem how you take that and how you try to score a point on the basis of that.
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